Keir Starmer to end Tory Culture Wars

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Oh what a relief. Where would we be without him?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/exclusive-keir-starmer-says-he-will-end-tory-culture-wars-if-he-becomes-prime-minister_uk_6666d7d2e4b02fc48bf3ec39?d_id=7763591&ncid_tag=tweetlnkukhpmg00000001&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=uk_main

Cassie/Adam should read some of David Goodhart's work.

As should Starmer.

Please can you stop using my previous UN. It's not good etiquette, and I changed it because posters kept wrongly assuming I was male, not because I'm hiding anything. There is absolutely no need to keep using the old one.

Nah, North London Elite doesn't refer to Jewish people, who tend to be in Stanmore and Edgeware now anyway. It refers to the people who priced them out of NW3 / NW8 - posh upper middle class white British liberals who have no experience of real life, would never dream of going down the road to the Denton Estate, all move in the same professional circles in media, PR, civil service and corporate law, have imported their political 'views' wholesale from Berkeley, despise the working class, and feel qualified to pontificate to the rest of us on what we should feel, think and say.

They especially love writing long patronising lectures on social media forums castigating other users for percieved micro aggressions.

They are best ignored.

Agree.

At the moment, the youth vote is solidly left leaning. But that is likely to change I suspect.

In France the youth vote is very much the base of Le Pen's support. Its an interesting contrast. Is there a widely different set of generational values?

Or is it more to do with who is the political establishment and who is the opposition and just general public dissatfaction with current politics throughout Europe. Its not been an easy political time.

Over the last 5 years both Brexit and Covid have provided challenging issues for the UK and France. Add in concerns about immigration which will only be driven by climate change and polticial unrest in Africa and the Middle East. Add in Russia.

So whats going to happen?

Macron calling an election is surprising, but I also think he is one of the few politicially astute politicians who can see the incoming issues far in advance. He's screwed and won't be able to action anything now anyway so he perhaps has nothing to lose. He really hasn't handled a lot of issues well.

He either forces everyone to rethink and vote for him in a panic. Or Le Pen gets in. But will Le Pen government for 5 years be able to handle things better? Given France priorities? I bet theres an element where Macron also thinks 'well let them take control and mess it up and let what the public think then' to an extent. He is that arrogant afterall!

And in the UK?

When the opposition become the establishment do we think that youth politics is going to be quite so enthuased by it? I'm not convinced. I think a fracturing the most likely scenario.

The Tory Party has been plagued by division since 2016. These fractures haven't been confined to the Torys though. Starmer has only just about kept a lid on it. These fractures are going to play up. The opposition will be from the back benches not across the floor. Just as Johnson found, its not a recipe for stability even with a huge majority. Things he should have got through, Johnson was unable to. Why should I think that Starmer will be able to do better? If Starmer is a fence sitter, then there could be more inaction than you think. If he tries to take on certain issues, you could see a fracturing. Anything contentious will be picked up and jumped on my the opposition to stir the shit internally within Labour.

I do think this could drive a youth far right movement in time too. The rise of Incel Culture generally is noteworthy. There is more of an appetite for certain views than we give credit for. 'Be Kind' is not exactly true in practice either.

We also have this growing acceptable face of ageism in the UK within British politics which I think is fascinating and will play out in ways we haven't quite got on the radar yet. I think thats one of the next things to look out for. There's a desire to almost 'punish the boomers'. Its part of a generational tipping point in demographics thats affecting politics. Power is changing from one age group to another.

And yes. Farage as the main opposition leader terrifies me. Or even as the loudest voice amongst a group of opposition parties with a similar number of MPs on the opposition. Farage WILL win a seat. That means he WILL have a huge part to play for the next 5 years and he WILL be on every political show going (and probably not turn up for actual debates). The idea that he won't stoke division like he did previously and he won't be like Trump is pie in the sky.

How Starmer intends to deal with that, is quite beyond me, if he's not engaging with groups who feel ignored. Thats how the far right feeds... on the centre's failures to engage with grass roots.

We'll see. I don't think it will be plain sailing. Blair was in a MUCH better position all round. A lot of people want Blair II (minus WMD and wars). They won't get Blair II. Ironically John Major handed the keys over to Tony in a financially fairly decent state compared to the shit show today. This is more relevant than anything else.

READ MY POST.

The way for Keir Starmer to end the Tory culture wars is for him to admit that women are female people, the number of women with penises is zero, that it's not bigoted for us to want our own single sex spaces and sports, and that gender identity is a belief system shared by a small minority of people.

Then the Tories wouldn't be able to make political capital out of stating the fucking obvious, and feminists would be able to vote Labour without worrying about their stance on women's rights.

I think everyone can work you out from your posting style in about 5 mins flat, so I'm not sure why you are worried about etiquette. You out yourself!

Its one of the reasons I've not bothered with a name change. I think I'd be worked out pretty quickly!

Yep.

Its not really hard is it?

Deal with the problem properly and robustly by engaging and doing impact studies and research to kill the conflicts off once and for all rather than sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away and the nasty wims shut up.

Agreed, if you look at the big (and increasingly politically relevant) right and far right movements in France, Germany and Sweden, people under 30 make up a huge proportion of the voter base and support.

Young people tend to rebel against the politics of their parents. The long left wing youth rebellion against Thatcherite parents is over and now young people are rebelling against the new parental generation of people who grew up under Blair and free market liberal orthodoxy.

Some of them are going to the far left it's true but under the rarae more and more are going far right. Look at the social media sites where young people REALLY say what they think - not Insta, Tik Tok and X, but kiwifarms, Reddit and 4chan.

And massively patronising

Tell me you don't know any teenagers without telling me you don't know any teenagers.
Forums are for mums and neekers.

I see my perfectly reasonable post has been deleted.

The most important point I had wanted to make was this: CassieMaddox: Do not interact with me going forward, please, and I'll do the same in return.

Trans issues is only one of the "culture wars", it just happens to be one many of the posters on this board enthusiastically engage in.

There is also immigration. Islam. 2 tier policing. ULEZ/drivers rights. The role of the flag. Europe.

It's probably the one most likely to stop people who would otherwise vote Labour from voting Labour though.

Theres some REALLY disturbing stuff out there.

MN gets framed as far right by twitterati and Instas. The reality is very different and I do wonder what parts of the internet many of these people have ventured too.

If you look at social attitudes on certain subjects that don't reflect a 'Labour' dominating reality.

I don't think its reasonable to expect posters to notice user names or to ignore posts they want to respond to. So I'll do my best but can't guarantee anything.

This board gets framed as far right because some posters do and say far right things without much challenge from others.

See the Tommy Robinson thread.

Link?

Great, Cassie, thanks. I knew you'd be understanding and helpful.

MN reflects a very wide range of view.

That, unfortunately, may reflect the far right.

But MN itself is not far right.

I personally think censorship and suppression of views is unhelpful as they fester. Being exposed to some of these views is useful to a) recognise they exist b) challenge them c) not allow it to become an echo chamber.

If you think this makes MN far right and that its right to frame MN as far right, you don't understand the first thing about politics or the internet.

I've just howllllleeed at your point about the internet and not knowing teenagers btw. That was a joke right??? You know how many people hear have teens or work with teens? Right?

TBH, my experience of genuine working class culture, having grown up in one, is that working class people tend to be small-c conservative on social issues, and indeed quite 'right' on some social, economic and domestic policy issues.

The original Labour movement reflected this.

It was Blairism which repositioned Labour towards free market liberalism. It then coopted American identity politics due to the influx of younger members in the late 2010s and that is the unholy Labour 'movement' we have now.

It doesn't really reflect the concerns of working classes anywhere in the UK and the middle classes pay lip service to it cos it benefits them career wise.

So we have an incredibly fragmented political consensus amongst both of the main party voter bases and this is why recent years have seen the rise of nationalist movements like the SNP, and now more far right movements that may even lean towards the facistic.

Young people will always love saying stuff they're not 'supposed' to say and I think over time this will lead to more and more youth support form rightist fringe parties.

I also think things like the TRA movement has indeed turned many young people away from the orthodox liberal consensus and this has caused them to question that orthodoxy on other issues where liberalism broadly has it right.

TRA has screwed over a lot more than women's spaces and places, it's also to blame for a lot of the recent turn against liberalism I think.

I would explain northern working class views as historically coming from Methodist Ideals of hard work, community minded and socially conservative.

We see many of the northern immigrant population broadly replicating this but then being told they should be Labour voters because of their ethnicity and how we should be inclusive blah, blah, blah.

George Galloway is picking up on this and also weaponising the Israel conflict.

For me its about the creeping Authoritarian tones of being taught what you Should and Should Not believe, that have crept over from America.

As young people start to question this and learn about grey areas, because such black and white thinking has developed and is encouraged by social media (we have a resident enforcer here who does the same), it leads to people rejecting what they've been taught in full - a backlash.

You don't change attitudes long term by enforcement. You change them by getting people to really truly understand issues and why they are beneficial for everyone. Enforcement in the face of glaring and unresolved concerns never ends well. Why? Because it produces a sense of injustice.

A sense of injustice is the bedrock to all of this. All these issue that are problem issues stem from a sense of injustice:

Look at the list posted above:
re is also immigration. Islam. 2 tier policing. ULEZ/drivers rights. The role of the flag. Europe.

All are marked by this sense of disengagement on these issues and a sense of injustice. One group does what they want on a subject without proper engagement and bringing everyone with them and instead tries to shove issues under the carpet without actually dealing with them properly.

Its this Political Righteousness thats leading to problems. Ideologically driven with no thought to practical implication. We must do this at all costs no matter what the problems cos we are fuck wits. And its being done by ALL the parties. Its the ineptitude of it thats alienating the public. Its politicians not being able to actually understand the depth of the subject they are dealing which, because quite frankly, many of them lack the ability to.

You know how conversations work, yes?
You said - "MN gets framed as far right by twitterati and Instas."
I said - "This board gets framed as far right because some posters do and say far right things without much challenge from others."
You said "If you think this makes MN far right and that its right to frame MN as far right"

Nowhere did I say I think MN is far right. You've just gone off on one for some reason. I was (trying) to have a conversation.

As for the teen point, how many do you actually know who read kiwifarms and 4chan?

I also think things like the TRA movement has indeed turned many young people away from the orthodox liberal consensus and this has caused them to question that orthodoxy on other issues where liberalism broadly has it right.

And along comes Andrew Tate.

The social surveys on how many teens are aware of him and his views and approve of them are terrifying.

It was Blairism which repositioned Labour towards free market liberalism. It then coopted American identity politics due to the influx of younger members in the late 2010s and that is the unholy Labour 'movement' we have now.

It doesn't really reflect the concerns of working classes anywhere in the UK and the middle classes pay lip service to it cos it benefits them career wise.

One really significant aspect of this (which has attracted barely any notice) is that the Labour party adopted the "compensate the losers" strategy from the Democrats in the US. Basically, the concept was that there was little point in fighting against free market liberalism, so you would, instead, use the wealth it created to compensate the working classes for their growing marginalisation. This was, for instance, the driver behind tax credits and the like, rather than a policy which would focus on jobs, driving up wages, and so on. High immigration might actually drive wages down, but, if people were underemployed, and received benefits to ensure they could have a decent life, what could possibly go wrong?

Everything. Everything went wrong.

The thing is, people want jobs, and they want to be able to subsist on their own wages without benefits, and like communities (and don't necessarily want to live in a big city, without any connection with place), and want opportunities for their children, which don't necessarily require a postgraduate degree, or going overseas to work. Most of the population of Britain have very straightforward desires, which are not only not served by the major political parties, but are often dismissed as outdated, or even problematic. And then politicians and the media wonder why the support of radical parties is on the increase.