To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Criminalise pimps and punters and actually, effectively police it.

The issue with the Nordic model are that its scope was too small (like not extending to immigration agencies for example) and the inherent prejudice and /or racism of the people dealing with prostitutes. The failings are due to the people implementing it, not necessarily the concept itself.

It's still better than criminalising both prostitutes and punters , or worse making it all legal with no regulations , restrictions or oversight.

Whilst giving the women the right support services which will
probably assist them leaving prostitution.

which is not what men who argue for the buying of sex actually want. Because once a woman has a route to a safer, more enjoyable job, how many actually want to keep having sex with the men who buy them?

It’s like there’s some way you can help a woman deal with addiction or poverty issues and she’ll STILL have sex with you for money.

Look man I’m not after “winning” or being the hero of anything. Are you alright? Genuine question, I’m not sure how used to a proper and adult exchange of ideas you are, but did you mean to be quite so rude? Passive aggression suits nobody, and not at all to the standards of objectivity you have espoused at points. Let’s keep our personalities out of it yeah? 👍

I’m happy to write off that display as you having a bad day, and we don’t need to speak on it any further. I’m actually trying to build a consensus with you in good faith. So we are both against the harm and loss of life associated with prostitution, that’s safe enough to say right??

As to what would I do? Well I’m glad you asked, it’s a lot more difficult to advance an argument than tear one down, but creation is always more difficult than destruction as they say. So with that being said I think it’s it crucial that the choice to use prostitutes is criminalised, but not necessarily criminalising the prostitutes themselves. My rationale for the disparity is there doesn’t appear to be a mass legion of punters getting traumatised or even killed at the hands of sex workers. If it was occurring perhaps I’d think differently.

As to the question of calling it rape? I’m not especially fussed on that point either way as long as using prostitutes goes on the books as some sort of criminal act and requires registration as a sex offender, you would be right in saying it’s not going to 100% prevent the practice in its entirety but it is sure as hell going to provide a hell of an incentive to reduce the trauma and deaths. It’s a deterrent.

This is not my own words. I was so impressed I saved the post- if the original writer is still here, this answers all the "but it's work" / " if you only consent if you're paid then all jobs are just as bad" arguments

1. No job title is threateningly flung in the faces of women and girls all over the world the way “whore” and its many synonyms in many languages are used to commit verbal abuse.

2. Prostitution is often compared to coal mining. Harms to coal miners are accidents that safety equipment aims to reduce; harms to prostituted women are intentionally inflicted on them. Pornography commonly portray shaming women as an attractive goal for consumers.

3. Prostitution is often compared to low-paid McJob work. Fast food employees don’t need specialized social services to “help” them quit the way prostitution survivors need protecting from pimps. When prostituted women escape they are more often in the same situation as domestic violence victims, fleeing from imminent harm with only the clothes on their back and the fear of being recaptured in their minds.

4. Prostitution is often compared to cleaning toilets. Being forced by economic necessity to clean toilets every day would be deeply unpleasant but it isn’t rape and it doesn’t leave people with PTSD, sexually transmitted diseases, or unwanted pregnancies. Anyone who has both cleaned a toilet and engaged in sex could explain the vast differences in these two activities.

5. Prostitution is not service work, it is bodily exploitation. The sex, race, and age of who provides a legitimate service doesn’t matter for cashiers, plumbers, accountants, cab drivers, etc. the way it matters to prostitute-using men who won’t accept sexual services from a man’s body when they want a woman’s body or from an elderly woman’s body when they want a young girl’s body.

6. There is no occupation that can be done while the worker is unconscious. Prostitutes are often drugged, passed out from unendurable pain, or have head trauma inflicted on them before and during being sexually assaulted.

7. Prostitution is not an entertainment media profession like modeling or acting. Actresses pretend to have sex, prostituted women are not pretending having sex and the harm to their bodies and minds is evidence of exploitation, not an occupation. There is no trafficking ring forcing teenage girls to perform Shakespeare for men’s leisure.

8. Basic work safety conditions are impossible to reconcile with prostitution. Laws about occupational exposure(“reasonably anticipated skin, eye, mucous membrane, or parenteral contact with blood or other potentially infectious materials”) mandate latex gloves, eye goggles, face masks, and aprons to protect employees. Prostitution can never be OSHA compliant."

the 'thanks' button doesn't quite cut it for that post ^

@Dervel The male hero of the feminist board 😂😂😂
(The news that you had a friend who made rape jokes will no doubt cause more devastation on these boards than the break-up of Take That had on the whole of my year 7 form.) Why, why did it have to be Dervel???😭

I'm not saying you're a bad person BTW. That's not why its funny.

I got a pat on the head and @Dervel got told he's a traitor to his sex (plus a rape apologist).

Weird stalker vibes, much?

well yes, both of the men who have been on here ardently arguing for women to be free to choosy choose an occupation that sees them 18 times more likely to be murdered than the rest of the female population, and where around 70% of people in that occupation report being raped by their customers while working are frankly peculiar. They don't see women as real people, if they did they couldn't hold the views they do. Interacting with them is both depressing and enlightening.

This is from 'Prostitution in Sweden 2007'

"The overall picture emerging from the interviews is that the sex trade virtually disappeared from the street during a brief period immediately after the law went into effect. It later returned, albeit to a lesser extent. For instance, representatives of the Stockholm Prostitution Centre say that prostitution initially vanished from the streets when the law was passed, only to later return at about half the former extent. Now about two thirds of street prostitution is back, compared to the situation before the law against purchasing sexual services went into effect."

This has the evidence from the surveys Prostitution in Sweden 2014 The extent and development of prostitution in Sweden Mujaj and Netscher (Länsstyrelsen 2015)
This has the most up to date evidence 'Sexual and reproductive health and rights in Sweden 2017'.

I can find the information about Scottish police and street based sex work.

What is your point- beyond showing punters gotta be punters. All that says to me is that the fines and public humiliation didn't go far enough.

The point that I made is that there is a lot of false evidence out there. Someone wrote that the Agenda evidence states that 25% of prostitutes report having been raped by the boss/pimp. This is relevant to the subject of this thread. It isn't true.

Neither is it true that 'street prostitution in Sweden had halved by 2008'. Or that 'The number of men buying sex has significantly reduced, and the number of women and girls in prostitution has significantly declined'.

On the subject of murder, Soho has always been a big centre for prostitution but no prostitutes have been murdered in Soho since the 1940s. A woman called Camille Gordon was murdered, but she wasn't a prostitute, she worked in a clip joint. In Soho there are always two women in the flat, and one man.

If someone does research on drug addicts, obviously someone who spends £200 a day on crack and £100 a day on heroin is way more likely to be murdered. You need to find out what is the difference between the men and women addicts, and between those selling sex and those not.

Drug addicts are a minority among prostitutes, and we know what will help them. Rehab and things like housing. Things that the Nordic model is supposed to provide but the evidence is that it doesn't.

You need to find out what is the difference between the men and women addicts, and between those selling sex and those not.

No I don't. You and the punter apologists need to make a convincing argument as to why hiring a female body (or a male body for that matter) as a masturbatory tool is acceptable.

To Julie Bindel: “Any government that allows the decriminalisation of pimping and sex-buying sends a message to its citizens that women are vessels for male sexual consumption. If prostitution is “sex work”, then by its own logic, rape is merely theft. The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace.”

Women's and men's bodies in prostitution become a product to be traded. I don't care how many safety measures you (general you) put in place.

I'm now quoting what Cllr Sarah Field said about the abomination that is the Leeds "managed zone"

"When we refer to sex work we are subscribing to a notion that it is ordinary work based on a bizarre notion of equality of opportunity, when in reality the VAST majority of prostitution does not fit this picture in any way whatsoever"

"It’s not sex work. This euphemistic and sanitised language appeases the conscience of those who fail to acknowledge that prostitution damages women and children, it can NEVER be made safe and it fundamentally thwarts women’s rights to equality with men and their liberation, as a class, from systematic oppression."

"To anyone who is happy to call transactional sex legitimate work, I’d ask if they’d be happy if it was the career choice of their daughters, wives, mothers and sisters? And would they be happy to see “sex work” careers advice in schools?"

All your (general your) talk of making it safer comes down to nothing more than some sort of system which makes it somehow less dangerous for women to be penetrated by men they don't really want to be penetrated by.

I remember replying to points made in this old post. I remember that on the subject of STDs, I replied that Dr Petra Boynton writing in the BMJ stated that STDs are not a big issue for prostitutes in Britain.

"The recent increase in sexually transmitted infections in the general population in the United Kingdom contrasts with a reduced prevalence in female sex workers. And the prevalence of HIV infection in sex workers, mainly associated with injecting drug use, remains low— between 0% and 3.5%.5 Sex workers have a responsible approach to managing the risk of sexually transmitted infections, with a high prevalence of condom use for commercial vaginal sex (98%). The Home Office strategy shows inadequate understanding of risk, and the proposed changes could increase negative health outcomes, while limiting patients' access."

On the subject of PTSD, I know that among Radical Feminists they commonly say that prostitution causes PTSD. However, if you look at what experts say on the matter, it is very different. Bessel van der Kolk has written the popular book 'The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma'.

It is all about PTSD, and it mentions certain professions such as soldiers and fire fighters. They are more likely to get it. It doesn't mention prostitutes once.

There is no reason to believe that prostitutes get more unwanted pregnancies. So this is my response to paragraph 3 in the old post. I could reply to all the other paragraphs too. Paragraph 6 is the most ridiculous.

If someone says that prostitutes are 18 times more likely to be murdered than any other profession, that needs to be examined. As I said, it is not true of Soho where no prostitutes have been murdered for many decades. It could be true of drug addicts in general.

There are many things in society that are thought unacceptable. Drinking, drugs, gambling. These are unacceptable to some, perhaps a majority. The important thing is what happens when you try to ban them. 100 years ago in America they tried to ban alcohol. We still can't be sure if drinking increased or decreased, but what seems to be true is that people drank less beer and more whisky. Today in America the war on drugs has resulted in an enormous prison population while young people can easily get cannabis and an opiod epidemic among older people.

Don't say that alcoholism and drug addiction are trivial compared to the evils of prostitution. You talk about 'the VAST majority of prostitution' but the Leeds managed zone is not the reality of most prostitution in Britain today. Do you even realise that there are thousands of women in Britain today who use their hands to massage their clients and then use their hands to bring him to orgasm? That is all they do. Presumably Julie Bindel doesn't have a problem with this because it's not the interior of a woman's body. Except of course she does, just like she has a problem with all sexual contact between men and women. Radical and Revolutionary Feminists like Bindel and Jeffreys see it as objectification.

I don't even know if a masseur using her hands to bring her client to orgasm is illegal in Sweden. I have heard that there has been an enormous increase in Thai massage establishments since prohibition there. Seems to defeat the whole purpose of the law. If my daughter told me that she considered waitressing and bar work while she was studying but chose massage I wouldn't be bothered even if she did offer a 'happy ending'.

I am not interested in your apologia for punters.

This article sums up my views. All your, "but what about..." just reinforces how vile prostituted is.

"A society that acts in law and language as if men who pay to sexually access women are simply consumers, legitimately availing workers of their services, is a society in deep denial about sexual abuse – and the inequality underpinning it." And that's what you're arguing for.

Kat Banyard

Peter Sutcliffe did not target women who cleaned toilets, or who gave massages. Just because one book discussing Cptsd doesn't speak about prostituted women, does not mean that CPTSD is not a consequence of being prostituted.

It doesn't matter if no prostitute is ever murdered or raped. The point on this board is that using women's (and men's) bodies as masturbatory aids by men is wrong morally, ethically, spiritually and any society that thinks it is okay has something deeply wrong with it.

But it's not that bad. Nothing to see here. Nope.🙄

c'mon

I'm still reading the studies you linked to, but this stayed with me from the first one:

The informant also relates that prostitution has an impact life after leaving it behind, because the former prostitute has a secret that is often perceived as shameful and may have consequences for his or her family and other loved ones. Another informant (seller of sexual services) remarks: “Once you’re into it, it’s hard to get out; it’s like a drug I guess. This is really not something anybody really wants to do with their lives.”

does this sound like something you'd chose to do if you had decent opportunities to do something else?

Some truth, as opposed to the laughably misleading and outright dishonest claims made by our local punter apologists;

"Across countries, 73 percent reported physical assault in prostitution, 62 percent reported having been raped since entering prostitution, 67 percent met criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. On average, 92 percent stated that they wanted to leave prostitution."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228535864_Prostitution_in_Five_Countries_Violence_and_Post-Traumatic_Stress_Disorder

"Sex workers have elevated rates of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including HIV.1 One study of female, male and transgender sex workers in San Francisco, CA, reported high rates of gonorrhoea (12.4%), chlamydia (6.8%), syphilis (1.8%) and herpes (34.3%).9 Active STDs increase the likelihood of acquiring HIV. Genital trauma caused by frequent or forced intercourse also increases HIV risk.1 Violence, and the trauma associated with it, is a concern for many sex workers. Violence can include physical, sexual and verbal abuse that sex workers experienced as children, and as adults from their clients and intimate partners. It can also include the violence many street-based sex workers witness daily. This history of violence leaves many sex workers with emotional trauma, and many may turn to drug use to deal with the harsh realities of their daily lives."

https://prevention.ucsf.edu/research-project/sex-workers#:~:text=Sex%20workers%20have%20elevated%20rates,(STDs)%2C%20including%20HIV.&text=One%20study%20of%20female%2C%20male,%25)%20and%20herpes%20(34.3%25).

Cram all your lies up your asses repeatedly, john boys. Then you might get some vague sense of how it feels to have unwanted cocks stuck up you all day.

XChrome

Thank you. The claim about PTSD not really being an issue seemed implausible.

If my daughter told me that she considered waitressing and bar work while she was studying but chose massage I wouldn't be bothered even if she did offer a 'happy ending'

Oh aren't you the cool guy.

@ElonGates666 “commercial vaginal sex” what thoroughly depressing combination of words…

Some fathers (and mothers) pimp their children out for sex work and actively groom their children into sex work as adults. Not only as children (which is evil) there are parts of the world where its normal for a family to be supported by the daughter's/female members of that family working as prostitutes.

So it stands to reason that some men genuinely would not have a problem with their daughters being prostitutes. Its hard to believe because most men get panicky at the thought. In the same way most men wouldn't want their girlfriend working as prostitutes but some men make a living out of it. But its why arguing "what if it was your daughter" isn't as good an argument as you would think because not all men have that protective instinct.