To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Being a victim of sex trafficking isn't a job. Its a form of slavery.

I’m not wedded to the Nordic Model, but I do believe buyers should be criminalised. Humans are asymmetrical when it comes to sexuality, and sex carries more inherent risk for women than it does for men. The moral responsibility lies with anyone doing the harming than those being harmed. How this can even be a debate is baffling me beyond words.

I would extend this to beyond just paid for sex. Given the nature of sexuality and women’s inferior on average muscle strength (note in other physical areas women are physically superior in some ways so I’m not making the case women are weaker just that we’re asymmetrical). Thus it’s incumbent upon every man to be cognisant of his own strength, both in general terms, even towards smaller weaker men, but it’s exponentially MORE important in the sexual realm. How is any of this remotely contentious?

Great points.
Punters should also be punished appropriately. Far too often these cases just get kicked down to john school where they sit in a room with other deviant bastards and pretend to listen to lectures about the basics of being a decent human being. This is similar to the practice of sentencing domestic abusers to a few months of weekly group therapy with other scum.
Naturally, these methods don't reduce recidivism. They're just for show.

I don't think keeping anyone safe is the main point of the Nordic model. The main point is to limit prostitution by shaming the punters (good idea) and to offer an exit strategy for prostitutes.

I'm so bored of the righteous "I don't want to tell consenting adults what to do" shtick.

There are countless situations in every day life where society has determined that for greater societal good consenting adults simply can't do everything they want.

I'm sure you all know what I'm getting at but here's a selection.
Bare knuckle fist fighting
Paid and in many countries, altruistic surrogacy.
Paid organ donation
Paid blood donation.
Consenting adults simply can't "consent out" of many elements of Employment Law and most, if not all, Health and Safety Regulation.
In my own professional legal sector, which is a specialised commercial property sector, there are rights and obligations which can't be consented out of.

It's just nonsense to say "adults shouldn't be told what they can't do"

Absolutely this, also sick of the apparent mansplaining to women about lack of harm, when some of us on this thread have explained how we know that it* *causes harm.

Ffs we are saying it's not consent. Did you read any of the posts at all.

Theres only one consenting adult here and it's the man. And he appears to not care at all if the woman is coerced, doing it for drugs, doing this for some other reason.

The only way to be sure she consents is give the money without expectation of any kind of sexual act.

Anything else is not consent.

It’s been said already up thread that men will still use a woman for sex if they see needle marks, bruises or other signs of abuse.

Does anyone actually think these men care about the safety and wellbeing of these women? Or even if they are women, not underage girls? If prostitution was about giving a shit about women and girls the majority of it wouldn’t exist.

I've just had a look at the 'Written evidence submitted by Agenda' and it doesn't say that 25% of prostitutes report being raped by the boss/pimp.

The Agenda evidence is false evidence. Take this paragraph for example.

"3.8 After the introduction of the sex buyer law in 1999, street prostitution in
Sweden had halved by 2008 and there is no evidence women were displaced
to indoor prostitution or prostitution advertised online. The number of men
buying sex has significantly reduced, and the number of women and girls in
prostitution has significantly declined."

The reality is that street prostitution decreased to near zero in 1999 then gradually returned till (according to one report) in Stockholm it was back to two thirds of what it had been.

Street prostitution decreased in other countries too where they don't have the Nordic model, such as Scotland. The Scottish police have said this is probably because the women have dispersed and are less visible, or that more of them work indoors, or because of smart phones and the internet. The Swedish police refuse to accept any of this.

The best evidence for the amount of prostitution comes from surveys done in Sweden in 1996, 2008, 2011, 2014 and 2017. The proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers in 1996 was 1.3%, in 2008 it was 1.8%. The proportion of Swedish women who had sold sex at some time in their lives increased too. The 2017 survey put it at 1.5%, which is a three-fold increase.

The only statistic to go down was the proportion of Swedish men who had bought sex at some time in their lives. This is the one that proponents of the Nordic model quote while ignoring all the others. It is problematic because it is contradicted by the other statistics and it is a prevalence rather than an incidence statistic (incidence statistics are better than prevalence statistics in tracking changes in behaviour).

yes apologies, you're absolutely right, my bad.

to summarise section 2, more than half of women involved in prostitution report being raped or sexually assaulted by men who buy sex from them. A quarter of the women who had been raped or sexually assaulted reported that it was at the hands of a pimp or partner. So closer to 12.5% than 25%.

somehow I had missed this on the first read: Women in prostitution are 18 times more likely to be murdered than the general female population

interesting - can you provide links to these studies?

Ive posted it elsewhere but only about 20% of people on modern slavery are on sex work.

I don’t know how big a problem sex trafficking is in other countries but according to a sex workers organisation in the U.K.

“A study carried out in 2011 by London Metropolitan University and funded by the Government's Economic and Social Research Council found that 6% of prostitutes "felt" they were "deceived and forced" into the work.”

https://prostitutescollective.net/facts-about-sex-work-sheet/

I completely agree, like illegal drugs sex work is going to happen. So why not make it as safe as possible for all involved.

@Laidbackguy how many trafficked women do you think are free to go and have a little chat with a researcher?

FFS the critical thinking...

Ive posted it elsewhere but only about 20% of people on modern slavery are on sex work.

Sigh. It's like us wimmin are just blathering on.

‘The only way to be sure she consents is give the money without expectation of any kind of sexual act.’

This has to be the most ridiculous statement of all. So everything that involves an exchange of money for services is non consensual?!

I do take @MrsTerryPratchett ’s comments on board, and it is true that I have no skin in the game and this is a theoretical debate for me (hopefully higher level than 6th form!), but I also think that is what this kind of conversation is: a theoretical debate. What else is that kind of statement re consent? Is it a serious suggestion that you go up to a woman and give her money, then ask her for a date, or a debating point?!

Some here have elevated ‘lived experience’ (of which I have none in this subject) above objective research and considered opinion based on reading and consideration. I agree that lived experience has some value and we do consider it in law making, but research and statistics still plays a far bigger role (as, IMO, it should). I have posted links to decent research showing that the Nordic Model is detrimental to the health and safety of women.

The prostitutes collective is a group who stat that sex work is work, they are not impartial.
Given the hidden nature of much prostitution, any research is likely to be flawed.

@Newbutoldfather
I have posted links to decent research showing that the Nordic Model is detrimental to the health and safety of women.

Excuse me for shouting, but ALL PROSTITUTION IS DETRIMENTAL TO THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF WOMEN!

@Newbutoldfather What frustrates me about your arguments here is ok you are against the Nordic model. Fine maybe there are better ways of going about it than that. I’d even go further and say I’d oppose it myself if it was as bad as you claim.

However where my frustration sets in and troubles me deeply is your claim that if any individual woman is truly consenting through being paid and are thus responsible for any harm that they come to. Is that it? So what we can feel maybe a bit sad about that momentarily and do fuck and all about it in roughly that order?

I truly cannot believe you are happy ending it there. If I am right about your basic humanity, there HAS to be more to it, some place we can reach consensus. Beyond letting the status quo continue. By tearing down the Nordic model (which who knows may be the correct thing to do), but substituting absolutely nothing in its place you are de facto supporting things as they are. If that’s really the hill you want to die on then I guess there is no common ground between us, as personally things as they are is the LEAST defensible position to take. You are an empiricist and the data is all there on all the harm that it causes, so if you are as objective as you claim why is that data not of import to you? I must be missing something foundational in your claims that you can dismiss that data so easily.

I have no skin in the game and this is a theoretical debate for me (hopefully higher level than 6th form!), but I also think that is what this kind of conversation is: a theoretical debate.

I've comforted a woman whose sister died overdosing. After I supported her sister when she was heavily addicted, crying, and still went out to work. They had a terrible childhood at the hands of men. Then a terrible life. Then a terrible death.

You defending men's right to stick their cock in a crying, addicted woman is not theoretical. And anyone with a tiny amount of empathy or morals would see that.

This has to be the most ridiculous statement of all. So everything that involves an exchange of money for services is non consensual?!

Well quite. On the basis, I am forced into modern slavery every single day.

Women in prostitution are 18 times more likely to be murdered than the general female population

This is not something ever brought up by the MRAs when they claim men do the most dangerous jobs ever.
It's a job when they want to buy sex. Not a job when we talk about how dangerous it is.

Of course I'm sure women freely consent to that murder risk all the time

@MrsTerryPratchett ,

Obviously I don’t know you but I have seen your posts on many threads and you come across as one of the more sensible empathetic posters, and I tend to agree with most of your posts. But, here, you are arguing with a straw man and I just don’t agree with you.

‘You defending men's right to stick their cock in a crying, addicted woman is not theoretical. And anyone with a tiny amount of empathy or morals would see that.’

This is what I have never said or defended. I said that I defend the right of the exchange of sex for money where both are consenting adults in full possession of their senses. I have argued for strong protection and regulation.

Ok then give us SOMETHING a plan of action to avert all the trauma abuse and murder, cos if you are for the status quo THAT’S what you are standing for. No ‘theoretical’ about it…

@Dervel ,

The male hero of the feminist board (although the fact that you had a friend who made rape ‘jokes’ until you somehow dissuaded him maybe makes you a bit less of an ally than you think yourself)!

I wouldn’t be arrogant enough to try to prescribe policy but if, in some mythical world, I were Home Secretary, I would listen to the voices of current prostitutes, ex prostitutes, the police, doctors and academics who have done real research and formulate a policy based on all of them.

I am guessing improvements could be made in policing of trafficking, access to social workers and, of course, access to judgment free health care.

But, I don’t know and wouldn’t presume to. I have read research (not anecdote) showing that the Nordic model makes prostitution more dangerous, especially in terms of HIV spread (I have linked to research above). And I do also know that prostitution exists even in the most extreme religious societies, where the penalties are very grave.

Now, how about you tell me what you want to do to stop the trauma, abuse and murder, which may actually work?