To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Agree. Some of them also rape their own daughters (or at least would like to) so naturally they would not have a problem with it. They might even feel a sick sense of pride that their daughters are considered sufficiently attractive to be pincushions for other perverts. So yeah, asking them that is pretty pointless. Even if they would object to it, they will lie and say they wouldn't for the sake of "winning" the argument. Punter supporters are not likely to be honest men.

Although the owner of the German super brothel who's often mentioned was horrified at the idea of his daughters working in the family business.

Odd that isn't it? Children usually do step up to enter successful family businesses and it can be a disappointment for their parents when they don't.

In my experience it usually works better to ask men if they would be happy to 'service' a minimum of ten male punters a day who are much bigger and stronger than them. That usually shuts them up. The sad truth is many people genuinely believe that women in the sex trade are 'different' than 'normal' women, like there is a special subset of women who are born and exist solely to work as prostitutes and really enjoy it. The whole narrative is appalling

You want to talk about Kat Banyard do you? Ok then, let's talk about Kat Banyard. In one of her books (probably Pimp Nation) she quotes enthusiastically "Mr Wells" without revealing who this Mr Wells is. He's obviously a favourite with the Radical Feminists because Julie Bindel quoted "Mr Wells" in one of her books about the same time. Only Julie didn't use his false statistic, probably because she knows that it is false.

Mr Wells is Jim Wells, the Northern Ireland Evangelical who has got into trouble in the media because of his views on homosexuality and abortion. In the Northern Ireland Assembly he stated that 127 prostitutes were murdered in the Netherlands since legalization there.

The fact is that most of these women were murdered before legalization not after. It looks as if legalization has resulted in fewer deaths not more. You wouldn't expect an Evangelical Christian to care much about that, but there is no excuse for someone calling themselves a feminist.

Does Kat Banyard have any idea of the damage that she does to women around the world by allying herself with bigots like Jim Wells in trying to push fhrough the Nordic model? They've managed to get it through in Norther Ireland and the Irish Republic where women still get arrested for working together for safety.

The way to reduce violence is to stop arresting women. I'm looking for this BMJ research mentioned in Banyard's article. I haven't found it yet, but I have found on this BMJ article 'Conclusions Violence, anxiety/depression are linked to poverty, unstable housing and police enforcement. We need to modify laws to allow sex workers to work safely and increase availability of housing and mental health services'.

I agree with this. And don't say that the Nordic model helps women with housing and mental health services because it doesn't.

@ElonGates666 so what model do you propose?
How would you do it?

I have read this 'research' by Melissa Farley. Conducted in 5 countries, the women in Germany were 54 women from a drop-in shelter for drug addicts in Hamburg. These women are not representative of sex workers.

Melissa Farley has been discredited. Read the controversies online about her 'research'. This is on her Wikipedia page.

"Farley's prostitution studies have been criticized by sociologist Ronald Weitzer for reported issues with methodology. Weitzer was critical of what he saw as a lack of transparency in the interviews, how responses were translated into statistical data, sampling bias in favor of marginalized sex workers (such as street workers), and the general application of Farley's studies to oppose any kind of sex work."

Can someone please explain how some"sex workers " are more marginalised than others?

Such a lot of sound and fury to justify the rights of men to stick their penises where they're not really wanted.

I do wonder if these men ever examine why they have such a visceral reaction when the subject of taking away the ability of some humans to pay for sex with other humans comes up

well, if some women are Ok with it then it's fine to exploit some other women

or something

basically it goes:

something something something....anything you say about women's suffering is less important than men being able to buy sex....something something

Ah right, I thought it must be something like that, thank you for explaining 😊

And coming to tell women to agree with them so vehemently. Do they actually think we will change our minds or just get tired and give up?

It's worth a quick 'cost:benefit' analysis. Even if there's a small chance we're right, the only cost is men having to use their right hands, or maybe try to be slightly attractive so an unpaid woman will shag them. The cost on the other side is trauma, rape and death. You'd think the logic would work even if empathy doesn't.

The will of men to defend the right of other men to have unwanted sex is baffling to me. I get the right creeps in places like Ghana and Cuba, where younger men are 'walking around' with older white women. I feel no desire to defend those women.

That's the difference between you and me. Like Julie Bindel, you think that the law should 'send a message' whereas I think it should decrease human suffering. In 1996 0.3% of Swedish women said that they had sold sex at some time in their life. In the next survey in 2008 it was 1.1%. In the most recent survey in 2017 it was 1.5%. Do you still support the Nordic model?

When it comes to morals and ethics we listen to philosophers. I don't know of any modern philosophers who say that trying to ban sex work would be a good thing. Immanuel Kant was against it, but he was against any sex outside marriage. He invented the theory of objectification.

Katharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin took his idea and changed it. They don't count as philosophers though. They thought that any sex between men and women objectifies women, even in marriage. To most people that's a strange idea, although lots of Radical Feminists believe in it.

Martha Nussbaum is a philosopher and she developed the theory of objectification. Her ideas are quite credible but she is on record as saying that she doesn't believe that sex workers or their clients should be criminalized.

So that's the moral and ethical aspects, I don't know what you mean by spiritual. Perhaps you should ask Jim Wells about that, or any one of the evangelicals campaigning for the Nordic model.

Oh my sweet Lord, we've now got Cod Philosophy. We're past 6th Fomr Debating Club onto Fresher Philosophy. PoMo justifications for shagging unwilling women 101 in room 25.

It's not a question of defending punters. People who are against the war on drugs are not defending drug dealers. They know that the war against drugs harms addicts.

If people stopped taking drugs then the problem will go away. If people stop drinking or gambling then those problems will go away. That's not going to happen though, so we have to make practical laws. There is no need for trauma, rape and death. Women will continue to die when every time they try to work together for safety they get arrested for brothel keeping.

Ok, so why don't you tell that to Dr Bessel van der Kolk. I'm sure he'd be interested to hear where you think he is going wrong.

lovey, you quoted Wikipedia (where all the cranks and nutjobs go to try to make their mad opinions mainstream) to back up a point

okey dokes, you want to decrease human suffering (go you!)

what's your suggestion to decrease the suffering experienced by prostituted women, children and men?

ah well

If Dr Bessel van der Kolk and Wikipedia say so, then I'm altering my entire world view right now

Jeepers. A whole post of "listen to the men" dressed up as philosophy 😂

at least he's quite funny though

(him and Dr Bessel van der Kolk - what a mensch)

I've read his book and he talks quite a bit about sexual abuse causing trauma

You think Martha Nussbaum is a cod philosopher? You're quite happy to listen to crap about objectification from MacKinnon and Dworkin but there are more intelligent people out there. When considering the moral/ethical aspects of any issue we need to listen to the most intelligent people. It wasn't me who started on morals/ethics, I was responding to Grammarnut.

I'm not giving you my philosophy, I am informing you of the philosophical ideas of people like Martha Nussbaum. If you want to use terms like 'objectification' then you need to know what she has to say about it. Not just the ideas of MacKinnon and Dworkin. If anything is cod philosophy it is what they came up with.

I am informing you of the philosophical ideas of people like Martha Nussbaum. If you want to use terms like 'objectification' then you need to know what she has to say about it

you are absolutely priceless

but come on. why don't you inform me about your plan for decreasing the suffering of prostituted women, children and men?

I need to know what you have to say about it

we need to listen to the most intelligent people.

People who compare the Nordic Model with the war on drugs are not the most intelligent people, and anyone who defends punters has zero emotional intelligence anyway.