Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who consider prostitution rape...

644 replies

Ahsoka2001 · 09/06/2024 21:31

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Is prostitution rape? | Mumsnet

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning. I am undecided on the issue as I have not r...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 12:41

@BernardBlacksMolluscs ,

‘They are of course both in camp 3 in my view, although they will be unable to admit it, due to being 'nice guys' who 'love women'.’

Honestly, why do you bother with your amateur psychoanalysis based on a few paragraphs of text? It is irrelevant to the thread and reveals far more about you than anyone else.

You can say anything about me, and then I can make up some bollocks psychoanalysis in return about you.

Some people get really excitable about keyboard warriors’ ad hominem attacks. I don’t.

Whether I am a ‘nice guy’ or not has no relevance to what we are discussing.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 12:43

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 12:41

@BernardBlacksMolluscs ,

‘They are of course both in camp 3 in my view, although they will be unable to admit it, due to being 'nice guys' who 'love women'.’

Honestly, why do you bother with your amateur psychoanalysis based on a few paragraphs of text? It is irrelevant to the thread and reveals far more about you than anyone else.

You can say anything about me, and then I can make up some bollocks psychoanalysis in return about you.

Some people get really excitable about keyboard warriors’ ad hominem attacks. I don’t.

Whether I am a ‘nice guy’ or not has no relevance to what we are discussing.

uh oh, does people judging you make you sad?

which camp do you fall into lovey?

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 13:02

I wonder why some men feel the need to educate women on prostitution and it's effects on the women involved? I wonder why they feel that they have more knowledge of these issues than women do?

CassieMaddox · 25/06/2024 13:12

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 12:43

uh oh, does people judging you make you sad?

which camp do you fall into lovey?

He's very sensitive about it.

Grammarnut · 25/06/2024 13:17

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 07:28

@Dumbo12 ,

‘I'm still trying to reconcile the idea that women have to take ppersonal responsibility, while the men wii pay for sex, presumably, don't.’

It is about taking personal responsibility for making a choice as an adult human being. You may not like the choice that they make to prostitute themselves, but is it right to ban the choice?

You keep going on about how the ‘Belle du jour’ type is vanishingly rare. Honestly, I have no idea of the truth or how many of them there are; I suspect, however, nor do you. What you are saying is that choice should be made illegal (I know you want to criminalise the man, not the woman, but the idea behind it is to ban it altogether).

I do think that, if you truly believe in equality, that provided the woman has made a free choice, criminalising one half of the transaction is quite infantilising to the woman.

I do get that there are some things that we don’t allow for the good of society, such as paid surrogacy or organ sales. And you could claim prostitution is on the same spectrum. But, again, most wouldn’t make the claim that sleeping with someone for money was akin to selling an organ. But I do see this argument.

And then, how far do you go? Would you make penetration illegal or all sexual acts, and would that only include face-to-face or virtual too. Should Only Fans be made illegal?

But, even I did buy the above, you then have the practical argument. You can’t ban prostitution. Even in countries where the penalty is death, it still happens. And the evidence of the famed Nordic model is that it causes more harm, and again penalises the women more than the men.

I have engaged properly on this thread and steered clear of trite or ad hominem attacks. This is a discussion board and people are entitled to dissenting views, I don’t get upset or shamed by 3 (or even 7) word trivial meaningless slogans, so you will be wasting your time replying in that vane (unless trying to impress other fellow travellers).

The point of the Nordic model is to shame the men who pay for sex. That's it's raison d'etre, and one I agree with. I don't want to criminalize prostitution, I want to limit it as far as possible. And the porn trade. Surrogacy I want to ban. No one has the right to have a child. No one has the right to hire someone's body (and health etc) to have a child. Having sex is not a right either.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 13:25

CassieMaddox · 25/06/2024 13:12

He's very sensitive about it.

That’s because he’s actually a very nice guy who loves women

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2024 14:17

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 13:02

I wonder why some men feel the need to educate women on prostitution and it's effects on the women involved? I wonder why they feel that they have more knowledge of these issues than women do?

When their entire knowledge is either as a punter or none at all. I've lived with, been friends with, worked with and supported women, girls and men for decades. When men wonder why we are so angry, I've sat with a lovely young woman who'd left, in a cafe. Her old pimp walked in. He didn't even recognise her because she was no longer the underage, dangerously underweight, addicted girl he knew. She was terrified. I advised her that if he recognised her and came over, he would have to get through me, and the Mother in me meant it.

Was that 'infantalising' as well? Protecting a teenager from a predator? And she never once struggled for punters when she was working. Because men don't care, they really don't. Bruised, track marks, underage, crying, pregnant; none of that matters. Protecting that is what the apologists and punters on this thread are doing. 6th form debating club arguments aside.

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 15:45

@Ahsoka2001 MrsTerryPratchett
I'm with you on this, have also sat alongside, mainly women and girls, helped them to leave and relocate. infantilising ? No, helping them to live a life where self harm scars don't add a premium to your cost, where punters re-enact your familial abuse? Yes

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 15:52

Sorry don't know what happened with the @bit that should have been @MrsTerryPratchett

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:32

XChrome · 24/06/2024 22:12

That was unworthy even of your clearly low standards for argumentation.
If you are a consumer in an industry rife with slavery then of course you don't know. What industries would those be? Please list them. Arborists and builders, according to your example? 😄

According to https://www.antislavery.org/

“Modern slavery exists in many forms in the UK, including trafficking into criminal activities like cannabis farming, sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or forced labour on farms, in construction, shops, bars, nail bars, car washes or manufacturing.”

I think I’ve covered all of these in posts?

Home

We're the world's oldest human rights organisation, campaigning for freedom from slavery for everyone, everywhere, always.

https://www.antislavery.org

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:39

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/06/2024 20:45

What percentage of modern slavery is acceptable?

If you only care about slavery in relation to making a point about sex work, you don't actually care. Most trafficking is for sex.

Lets not let facts get in the way of your opinion.

Forced labour
Most cases of forced labour (86 per cent) are found in the private sector. Forced labour in sectors other than commercial sexual exploitation accounts for 63 per cent of all forced labour, while forced commercial sexual exploitation represents 23 per cent of all forced labour. Almost four out of five of those in forced commercial sexual exploitation are women or girls.

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:43

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 24/06/2024 20:47

you really are desperate for it to be ok for you to buy sex aren't you?

I’m just a believer in freedom of choice, what two consenting adults agree to do is not my business.

I get that some people want to impose their world view on others, I just only really think I have the right to dictate others life choices.

XChrome · 25/06/2024 23:51

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:32

According to https://www.antislavery.org/

“Modern slavery exists in many forms in the UK, including trafficking into criminal activities like cannabis farming, sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or forced labour on farms, in construction, shops, bars, nail bars, car washes or manufacturing.”

I think I’ve covered all of these in posts?

How prevalent is it? Is it as prevalent as in the sex trade? Is the rate of violence towards these workers comparable? Is the health risk the same, as in, for example, STDs? If not, they aren't comparable.

You can avoid it by hiring or patronizing only licensed, bonded firms, anyway. The same could apply to prostitutes. I am not opposed to licensed workers and state oversight, such as mandatory STD testing.
I am not opposed to legalization at all. I am opposed to callous fuckers who stick their dicks in people who have a high probability of being trafficking victims. You will not change my mind with false comparisons.

Christinapple · 26/06/2024 00:25

How prevalent is sex trafficking in the UK? I'll just leave this here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2024 01:24

Christinapple · 26/06/2024 00:25

How prevalent is sex trafficking in the UK? I'll just leave this here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

A 14 year old article about police incompetency? OK mate, nice try.

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2024 01:27

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:43

I’m just a believer in freedom of choice, what two consenting adults agree to do is not my business.

I get that some people want to impose their world view on others, I just only really think I have the right to dictate others life choices.

Just to check your consistency:

Selling organs?
BDSM people agreeing to kill and be killed, eat body parts etc.?
Mentally ill people not being sectioned because they can harm themselves if they like?
Surrogacy for profit?
Adoption for profit?

Is there no limit to freedom of choice or is the limit juuuuust after vulnerable women being raped for money?

XChrome · 26/06/2024 01:36

Christinapple · 26/06/2024 00:25

How prevalent is sex trafficking in the UK? I'll just leave this here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

"The Home Office estimates that there are up to 4,000 victims of trafficking for sexual exploitation in the UK at any one time.

Sexual exploitation in the UK has increased significantly from 2017-2020. Recent data released through Freedom Of Information requests (FOI) suggest cases rose from 158 in May 2017 to 543 in April 2020. Escaped victims reveal that they are beaten, forcibly injected with narcotics, and pressured to watch their own families' physical abuse. The NRM discovered that the most prevalent type of exploitation for children was sexual, including forced prostitution. Although many children forced into exploitation are from vulnerable backgrounds, the issue of child trafficking is not limited to any particular demographic or socio-economic boundaries."

https://www.humanrightspulse.com/mastercontentblog/taking-a-closer-look-into-the-uks-human-trafficking-crisis

Naturally, statistics can only count cases which were reported to authorities. Since the overwhelming majority of them are not, it is not possible to know the true rate.

Taking a Closer Look Into The UK’s Human Trafficking Crisis — Human Rights Pulse

Human trafficking in the UK is a crisis hiding in plain sight.

https://www.humanrightspulse.com/mastercontentblog/taking-a-closer-look-into-the-uks-human-trafficking-crisis

XChrome · 26/06/2024 01:38

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2024 01:27

Just to check your consistency:

Selling organs?
BDSM people agreeing to kill and be killed, eat body parts etc.?
Mentally ill people not being sectioned because they can harm themselves if they like?
Surrogacy for profit?
Adoption for profit?

Is there no limit to freedom of choice or is the limit juuuuust after vulnerable women being raped for money?

Funny how that works, isn't it.

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 26/06/2024 05:01

"Working Voluntarily"

BBC News.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/06/2024 07:30

look can everyone just stop pointing out facts please?

it's very important that vulnerable women can chose to do a job where 25% of them report being raped by their boss / pimp

you can't understand how important

it just is really important

Grammarnut · 26/06/2024 08:08

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:32

According to https://www.antislavery.org/

“Modern slavery exists in many forms in the UK, including trafficking into criminal activities like cannabis farming, sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or forced labour on farms, in construction, shops, bars, nail bars, car washes or manufacturing.”

I think I’ve covered all of these in posts?

Quite. And then there are such things as the promotion of electric cars, the components of which include cobalt and lithium in the batteries, which are mined by slave labour (including children) in places such as the Democratic Republic of Congo. Cheap clothes have the same background.

Grammarnut · 26/06/2024 08:11

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/06/2024 07:30

look can everyone just stop pointing out facts please?

it's very important that vulnerable women can chose to do a job where 25% of them report being raped by their boss / pimp

you can't understand how important

it just is really important

Thank you for posting the Agenda evidence. I get that. Free choice to be raped. As misogynistic as you can get. I don't agree with decriminalising prostitution, since I support the Nordic model, which criminalises the punter. The punter (and the pimp) are the rapists, after all.

ApocalipstickNow · 26/06/2024 08:17

Having a hook up with someone with addiction issues is irrelevant and can’t be compared unless the woman hooking up is having casual sex to get drugs. Most people would see someone trading sex for drugs to an addict as not entirely consensual and at best moral ambiguous if not outright predatory.

If you are paying a woman for sex when she needs that money to support her addiction you are not the good guy you think you are.

Newbutoldfather · 26/06/2024 09:58

‘it's very important that vulnerable women can chose to do a job where 25% of them report being raped by their boss / pimp

We do allow adults to choose to take risks. I don’t think anyone would like one night stands with strangers to be outlawed because there is a (quite reasonable) chance of being raped or assaulted. What threshold of risk do you feel allows adult behaviours to be banned?

I think rape/assault would be far more reduced by proper legalisation and regulation than by banning it, or attempting to ambiguously ban it via the Nordic Model.

I do think it is laudable to want to protect the vulnerable but the Nordic Model doesn’t work.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/politics/criminalising-the-sex-buyer

‘“My findings show that there is a great discrepancy between the Nordic model’s ideological discourse and the realities of people who sell sex,” she says.

“Fundamentally, the single biggest reason given for workers to enter the sex trade was the intention to earn a living. Comparatively, six per cent of those interviewed considered themselves to have been trafficked or forced by someone else to sell sex.

“Where their circumstances and reasons for entering the sex trade differ hugely, it is unhelpful and impractical to group together all those working in the sex trade as victims of one same sweeping ideological injustice.

“Moreover, contrary to the popular narrative, the most serious risks encountered by those working in commercial sex are not caused by exploitation at the hands of sex buyers and pimps. They are most often related to the institutional structures of immigration and policing.”’

https://www.nat.org.uk/press-release/hiv-open-letter-opposing-nordic-model-sex-work

‘We do support the Bill’s ambition to protect women from violence and sexual exploitation, but do not believe the proposed policy approach will achieve this. The Bill proposes introducing the ‘Nordic model’ which would decriminalise sex workers – an aspiration we share – but it criminalises their clients and many of the means through which sex workers market their work.

This would in effect criminalise sex workers by proxy, shift demand to less safe spaces, and increase the threat of violence and other harms as clients would be forced underground, making it more difficult for sex workers to manage risk, including risk of HIV and poor sexual health.

The Bill assumes the perpetrators of violence will be indirectly addressed by reducing client-side demand, this claim is without substantial evidence.’

Are the many here who are passionate about the Nordic Model more interested in protecting vulnerable women or punishing men, regardless of the actual cost in health terms to the vulnerable?

Criminalising the sex buyer - does the Nordic model keep workers safe? | LSE Research

Supporters of the Nordic model argue that decriminalising the selling of sex recognises the power imbalance of sex work - but is it keeping sex workers safe? As debate on sex work legislation reaches the European Union Parliament, Niina Vuolajärvi urg...

https://www.lse.ac.uk/research/research-for-the-world/politics/criminalising-the-sex-buyer

Swipe left for the next trending thread