Tommy Robinson and Let Women Speak

[eatfigs]

I've only read about this on Twitter so there's a chance this is being taken out of context, but it looks like Let Women Speak were part of Tommy Robinson's rally in London this past weekend:

https://x.com/shularises/status/1797585248580186511

https://x.com/GappyTales/status/1797611080212205988

https://x.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1796931835823362392

This doesn't sit right with me at all. I've been to LWS events and thought I knew what they were about. I've argued against the guilt-by-association tactics that some activists use against LWS when male intruders have turned up to the events, like the neo-Nazis in Melbourne.

But here we see the opposite, LWS deliberately attending far-right fascist marches. This seems inexcusable to me.

Well put.......and why it is important to identify the ideas and thinking behind any particular movement or political grouping; because unless you understand the thinking and the values that lie beneath that thinking, you are going to be dismissive and reductive about what those people stand for, or what you believe they stand for.

you have to understand your opponent's position if you want to engage with it, and if you want to defeat it or show its weaknesses.

Here you go Tinsel, your own clockwork monsters. You won't have to wait for the Brighton wasps, wind them up at your convenience.

Is Maya Forstater far right now? Blimey.

This really is a silly storm by a small group who think anyone not totally leftist is an evil racist facist.

They are constantly looking for proof of this racist facism. They think this TR incident is a clear scoop in their revealing of the racist facist women, and will not accept, and cannot actually understand why others think: Hmm, I don't know? I have questions...

Most people can comfortably live with the fact that women, feminists, GC people, leftists, Tories and even MAGA hat wearers have a range of views, reasons for them and can't be divided into good or bad people based on belonging to any of those groups.

Can a Racist Facist make any good points about anything ever?

If a racist facist makes a good point you agree with, what should do?

If a racist facist agrees with you, and says so, what should you do?

How do you know you are not a racist facist if someone says you are one?

After that LWS meeting in Brighton two years ago it was all about "denouncing".

The nastiest one was demanding over and over that people be condemned until they denounce. It was fascinating. I don't think you ever are not unclean even if you do denounce eventually.

The word isn't being used in this thread. perhaps we can have a bit of denouncing demanding for old times sake?

If some one calls you a racist facist, but you don't think your are, but people won't listen to you, because you are a racist facist, what should happen next?

Oh denouncing is definitely what is being wanted here.

And condemning until you denounce.
That is bound to go well!

What paralells from history do we have for this...?

What have those two women got to do with me and others anyway?

Nada

Why are we all responsible for them

It’s such rubbish, it’s more about domination of X on the minds of some than anything else.

If you don't "like" a particular set of ideas it presumes you understand what those ideas are in the first place; yet you continually dodge questions that seek to clarify what your understanding of those ideas and value actually is.

Whe you say " far right" - what are the ideas, beliefs and values that accompany that label in your mind? And in what way do they diametrically oppose your own? Because polarisation/rejection of the sort you continually espouse hinges on diametrically opposite ends of a scale of values.

When you tell people they are "aligning themselves with the far right" - what exactly do you mean? Do you mean just being in the same space, the same room as people with a variety of different perspectives to yourself?

Isn't that why people get cancelled or no platformed - because others feel they cannot cope hearing different views, even radically different views?

Might have missed it earlier in the thread. But has it been established that attendees at the march would have known it as a TR protest? It has been described both as a protest against 2 tier policing (not inherently a right or far right idea) but also as a far right TR demo.
Was it pitched as...
"Come and hang out with famous racist Tommy Robinson to show you hate non white people?"
or
"Come and protest about police treating different groups of protesters differently."

I think I'd feel differently about people who responded positively to message A vs message B.

We all have reasons for holding the beliefs we do.

If you go to couple or marriage counselling over a protracted issue at the heart of your relationship - you will find the counsellor seeks to get you to listen to each other and try to understand each other's persepctive.

Understanding something doesn't have to mean agreeing with it - but if you don't understand it -how can you ever hope to resolve the issue you have that has created such a breakdown of communication and/or trust? You simply end up demonising each other.

I don't know what to say about your involvement in "the movement". I've signposted women to your sites and followed your threads which helped me with a real life scenario. It is extremely difficult for me to accept that someone who supports women would see no problem with people attending a TR march. It does colour the support I've had from your content to be honest.

Well there we are. Just saying that other women have the right to go to a legal march, and that I won't automatically shun them for it, taints me and all of my work.

That right wing women are just as prone to domestic abuse as left wing women is presumably not relevent.

Unlike you and various others here I'm not in a real life clique.

I don't want to merail the thread but I'm curious who here I'm supposed to be in a real life clique with, Cassie?

The enormous impact on Maya came from vicious left wing denouncing for being far right aligned. It still goes on.

The tribunal included left wing people saying that the design of the Fair Play for women leaflets was Nazi adjacent. It was actually a very commonly used style with examples from all over the market shown in the court process. But the left wing people denounced it, a simple red and black colour scheme,as Nazi adjacent and Maya too. Anything can get you denounced.

I don't see any substantial difference between these Brighton women and the ghastly Americans that persecuted Maya.

They might believe that men are not women but that's the only thing they differ on. That's the problem, they are all denouncers and because their culture is one of denouncing, they need anyone that says in public that men aren't women to also be a denouncer or they get denounced by their own culture. It's their culture war they project into everyone else.

Do you even understand what you mean by 'right wing' outside of tribal association? I'm not sure you do at all. 'Right wing' is just the devil/the bogeyman one must never associate with if one belongs to certain social-political tribes. People in the Labour party call Kier Starmer 'right wing' - what do you think they mean by that? In what ways is he 'right wing'?

It helps to be clear about what you are trying to communicate, else you simply end up throwing stones and Molotov cocktails - and that doesn't achieve anything but ongoing hostility.

Strangely disappointed!

Why?

Did you expect me to turn up and denounce Aja , DJ Lippy and LWS?

I appreciate you didn't say the exact things i listed, but they've all been used on this board and usually on KJK threads.

Can you not see that you are just one of many carrying on the same thing of accusing someone of not being up to your exacting standards of pure of thought?

There is a young woman at university in Edinburgh, Nicole Jones. She has attended just about every event that's been on whilst there that was for the gender ideology side of things. Unlike TRAs picketing gender critical events at the same university Nicole went, sat through the event and took notes. She didn't disagree with people and try to shut them up or shout over them.

To a casual observer she will have looked like she was there because she was a person who was as like mind as to the majority of the attendees.

Some of the information she heard during one of those events was used in a recent tribunal where the judges, in part thanks to Nicoles evidence, decided that the claimants employer had discriminated against her. Had Nicole not gone to the event because she was scared of guilt by association a very important piece of evidence would have never been heard in court.

I don't know Aja or DJ Lippy so I can't answer as to why they were at this particular rally or if they were acting in ways that indicates one believes in the cause their reasons for doing so.

What I can do is not judge them and find them guilty of far right wing (whatever the fuck that means these days) views based on incomplete information.

Denouncing things that aren't really anything to do with you is just virtue signalling.

Can a Racist Facist make any good points about anything ever?

Yes

If a racist facist makes a good point you agree with, what should do?

Odd question. You carry on with whatever you were already doing.

If a racist facist agrees with you, and says so, what should you do?

Depending on how and where and why this is said, I might do one of more of: do nothing as above; clarify that the "agreement" is actually a misunderstanding of my position on their part; acknowledge the area of commonality and take the opportunity to expand to show the limits of the agreement; say very loudly "take your fucking arm off my shoulders you creep, I'm not your ally".

How do you know you are not a racist facist if someone says you are one?

I accept that humans lie to ourselves as well as each other, and treat myself as cynically as I might someone with opposing views. I'd look at it from their POV and assume it's a genuine belief, and ask myself why they might say that? Can I explain my position on those points from first principles that I consider true and reasonable? Is there a gap in my logic I don't want to look too closely at? Is there any "us or them" creeping in? Since all humans have to balance some degree of self interest with their finer principles, am I honest about my own hypocrisy and not allowing myself to be comfortable in virtue signalling? This is how I can know as best I can that my views are not based in unconscious racism or unrecognised facism.

I think it's the nasty version of vitue signalling. It has intent to damage along with control.

Yes. I have to admit I was thinking about things like pop stars being forced to state their position on Palestine rather than denunciation of individuals.

The leaflet for my local constituency Labour candidate is covered in Union Flags. 🤔

Do people here have a red line. Is there anyone you wouldn't work with for whatever reason even though they agree with you on GC issues.
Where is the line? For you personally, and why?
TR is significantly over my line for instance. I don't work with racists.

No.
She (I assume) is a conservative voter. That is miles away from being a far right Tommy Robinson supporter.
Same as with Kemi. Please don't smear Conservatives by implying they are some how the same as Tommy Robinson.

No. That's why I don't understand why anyone would go to their marches.

There are plenty of other movements concerned with standards of policing in this country. Some of them are even feminist. No need whatsoever to march with a racist misogynistic thug and then post it on twitter.

This is about far right not right-wing.

The fact you apparently can't see the difference is what taints your work for me.

Others of course can continue to engage. But not if you flounce because "the left are mean"