Tommy Robinson and Let Women Speak

[eatfigs]

I've only read about this on Twitter so there's a chance this is being taken out of context, but it looks like Let Women Speak were part of Tommy Robinson's rally in London this past weekend:

https://x.com/shularises/status/1797585248580186511

https://x.com/GappyTales/status/1797611080212205988

https://x.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1796931835823362392

This doesn't sit right with me at all. I've been to LWS events and thought I knew what they were about. I've argued against the guilt-by-association tactics that some activists use against LWS when male intruders have turned up to the events, like the neo-Nazis in Melbourne.

But here we see the opposite, LWS deliberately attending far-right fascist marches. This seems inexcusable to me.

This thread isn't about Tommy Robinson.

This thread was started in order to attack a woman who chose to attend a legitimate event in London.

So, when it comes to people like TR who you think are the devil incarnate as their views are to you despicable, and whether I agree with your view of him or not is irrelevant, if we can't interview them, be interviewed by them, be in the same vicinity as them, hand out leaflets near them or to them, read anything written about them or by them or breathe the same air unless prepared to risk being accused of being a racist homophobic bigot as we are guilty by association how do we ever reach a point where these people can be reached and educated to think differently?

If we can't interact with groups who have different opinions how do we progress?

Maybe so, but you know racism has an ideological belief set behind it. In fact not always the same ideology. Saying someone is a racist doesn't say much, especially when people will say a black woman who says she loves her country is a racist.

It's not really possible to understand or make useful comments about social movements or what's going on in politics without understanding something about these, why people find them compelling, and so on. Almost always there are elements of truth in ideologies that people find compelling, and often they are things that have been ignored or suppressed which give rise to more extremist political movements. It's only by addressing these things that they can be made less powerful for radicalization.

People who won't engage make basic errors about what these ideologies are about, what drives them, and why people join causes with them. They are reduced to this bizarre idea that it is just by being close to them that people are "infected" which simply isn't accurate.

They also regularly mistake people who are not extremists, who just have ideas they disagree with, for extremists. They also fail to recognize ideologies that paint themselves as antiracist but are in fact based on the most fundamental racist beliefs.

i do understand. He's racist. You cannot say that you support women's rights whilst sharing a platform with him. This wasn't 'an event'. This was HIS event. Attending is supporting.

The event was Tommy Robinson's. It is about him. That's why his name is in title.

His name is in the title in order to smear LWS.

There is no such thing as a "GC Movement™️" and thinking there is leads to these ridiculous assertions that it is being brought into disrepute.

What there is is a broad-based, cross-party, cross-left/right, cross numerous other movements and interest groups, plethora of groups, individuals, positions, influences and whatnot with varying levels of interest in safeguarding, women's rights, and concern about transgendering as an idea and a process.

Such a plurality of standpoints is fundamental to good democracy.

No.

Have you read any of the nuanced posts about argument on here?

Or are they also to be dismissed out of hand because the entire thread is 'racist adjacent'?

I find it problematic because I think the extremes at either end are capable of pushing damaging messages subtly and moving the Overton window so those messages become acceptable.
Forced teaming of an extreme message with something totally reasonable is one way that happens and populists/extremists like TR are very good at it.

It was to attack a woman who didn't attend such an event, but knows some people who did, for reasons we don't really know much about.

Hello. Strangely disappointed.

I said none of the things listed, but never mind.

Attending a far right rally and acting in ways that indicate one believes in "the cause" is what I am talking about. You didn't include that in your list.

Denial, obfuscation and straw men are another way that people are "stopped from thinking differently".

I would say she's totally nailed the point.

Maybe curiosity and debate only works one way to you?

As much as you would prefer alas you can't control what other grown adults choose to do

The clue is in the title. The thread is about LWS and TR.
The "attacks" (aka posting people's own publicly available words and images) only happened because the normal posters did a "this never happens - it's a smear, and made up to damage the cause". Rather than acknowledging why women would be concerned.

It is really coming to something when people concerned about far right infiltration of an important political movement are branded "socfems", "mean girls" and "angry wasps".

I agree with a PP. I doubt anyone with half a brain would want to get involved in such toxicity. Which is a shame because ultimately women suffer due to a lack of political awareness. But hey ho. Far more important TR and his supporters aren't insulted on line.

Disingenuous again.

Curiosity would be asking why Aja and Lippy might have attended the rally, not immediately assuming they're now far right racists.

Debate would be engaging with substantive points and exploring ideas, not seeking to outcast women who think and do things differently to you.

😂
OK then. Shame a lot of women would be utterly repulsed by being associated with Tommy Robinson and the far right and therefore unlikely to join.

Plurality of standpoints are unlikely in those conditions.

I think some of these posts evidence a very high level of investment in a few people on X

Hardly anyone knows who the women are

Why does anyone have to take responsibility for any of their actions?

These Twitter spats are just high focus on people’s feeds.

Not at all.

You've been repeatedly invited to debate, to explain your views and your thinking, but each time you dodge the question.

"No thanks. I have no interest in getting into a debate about why fascists are reasonable. Don't be gross."

It's like an exercise in #nodebate. You seem to think you don't need to explain why you're right, we should unquestionably accept that you just are because you're one of the 'good ones' and anyone questioning you is a big old racist (circular argument).

No one has asked you to justify 'why fascists are reasonable' - that's another straw man.

Tell us why they aren't reasonable. We might agree! Argue, debate the ideas. You've mentioned before playing the ball not the person but seem strangely reticent to do that.

This demonising of people personally rather than challenging their ideas causes no end of problems, tribalism and polarisation.

How do we determine who the 'right people' are if we don't examine their ideas, actions and values?

Incidentally, my local co-op has an England flag in the window today (presumably for D day). Are the co op racists as well?

Not sure how laughing helps push debate forward, but it's clear that's not your intention Cassie.

I don't want to be associated with Tommy Robinson either, but if others are, especially those I generally like or respect, I'm curious to know why. Any attempts to explore this have been dismissed by your constant badgering and straw manning.

I'm not going to play six degrees of Kevin Bacon to outcast myself or others.

My curiosity, and many feminists actually, was why LWS leaflets were being handed out at TR events.

We can all see from the thread why. Because 1) GC feminists from LWS were at the march and 2) they think they have a good bunch of GC supporters at the march too.

The problem is why you would want to invite far right misogynist fascists to support your movement.

You know as well as I do there have been concerns about far right infiltration for years,being written off as "never happens".

These events show it does and has happened and what's more, LWS and its supporters don't care and are happy to play into the stereotype that GC people are a bunch of bigoted right wingers.

Great stuff. Amazing for women's sex based rights.

"GC people" isn't really a homogenous thing though.

Why do you want people who are different to you to get about and maybe support your political views?

Gee dunno, probably because there's no point in preaching to the converted?

Someone agreeing with me is not equal to me agreeing with them. It's not like Facebook friends!

Tommy Robinson calls feminists dried up misandrists. He has a conviction for stalking a woman. He criticised a rape charity on Facebook leading to the charity getting hundreds of abusive calls. He is a misogynist.

I'm not sure what there is to debate about it.

The problem is why you would want to invite far right misogynist fascists to support your movement.

What does ‘your movement’ mean here?

I, and others, haven’t invited anyone