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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KJK is standing against Lloyd Russell-Mole in the General Election

1000 replies

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/05/2024 14:20

Grin https://www.youtube.com/live/vHudcvW0bSQ?si=kj-pX6z_ioL6l3nj

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/live/vHudcvW0bSQ?si=kj-pX6z_ioL6l3nj

OP posts:
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42
illinivich · 02/06/2024 13:04

Its not the soundbites posie can get, its what she can get Jess to say. And thats important. We are told that jess is GC, understands the issues, supports women only spaces.

This is an opportunity for us to hear exactly what her understanding is and what she is willing to say. We should get a clear idea what labour intend to do.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 13:12

She's going to say the party line, which is a reasonable position. If she says anything. Tbh I doubt KJK will get the opportunity to ask her directly.

Datun · 02/06/2024 13:20

illinivich · 02/06/2024 13:04

Its not the soundbites posie can get, its what she can get Jess to say. And thats important. We are told that jess is GC, understands the issues, supports women only spaces.

This is an opportunity for us to hear exactly what her understanding is and what she is willing to say. We should get a clear idea what labour intend to do.

Exactly.

What she doesn't say will be just as revealing as what she does.

And the interesting thing is she is far more aware of the detail.

You're hopefully going to get a bit of nitty-gritty

Datun · 02/06/2024 13:21

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 13:12

She's going to say the party line, which is a reasonable position. If she says anything. Tbh I doubt KJK will get the opportunity to ask her directly.

You'd think they'd be chomping at the bit to reassure women, but perhaps not

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 13:31

Datun · 02/06/2024 13:21

You'd think they'd be chomping at the bit to reassure women, but perhaps not

I believe we're going to get more details after the GE. Which is very reassuring indeed. 🙄

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 13:33

Datun · 02/06/2024 13:21

You'd think they'd be chomping at the bit to reassure women, but perhaps not

It exposes the problem with where and how for men with a GRC

That’s why they avoid it as much as possible

Datun · 02/06/2024 13:59

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 13:33

It exposes the problem with where and how for men with a GRC

That’s why they avoid it as much as possible

Indeed.

If you can get a GRC by sending off the backs of three packets of cornflakes, and all men with a GRC are ladies, then let's hear it.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 14:48

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 12:39

Well, I could ask the same of you.
It's a discussion board. People discuss things? And tend to use their own beliefs and values to inform the discussion?

Well I can easily answer that...I'm posting on a Mumsnet board which provides a dedicated space for women to discuss and share information; to follow court cases and so on, around the issue of gender ideology and its impact upon women's sex based rights and on the education of children.

Why do you post here? Be honest. What is your purpose?

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 15:00

Uipott · 02/06/2024 12:09

If the aim is to highlight trans ideology and its effect on women and children, why pick a candidate to run against who publicly supports single sex provision and a biological definition of sex? It makes no sense. There are so many Labour politicians who haven’t taken this stance, where there would be a meaningful wedge.

This is what Jess Phillips said in the Sex Matters debate in Westminster Hall last year:

”The status quo is not working. People who are speaking in the debate probably feel anxious about doing so, and that is not a status quo that I recognise—for those of us on either side, if we have to have sides.
Sex and gender are different. I have never met a trans person who denied that over the years of having robust debate with them. In my life, the discrimination I have suffered at the hands of establishments, rather than just everyday sexism, has always been exclusively because of my biology. The obvious examples I could give are related to pregnancy. I was told not to bother to turn up for interviews because of pregnancy scan appointments, and that I was too young to decide whether I wanted to be sterilised at the age of 28, whereas my husband, just three years older than me, was allowed to make that decision without anyone batting an eyelid. I had to get two doctors to sign a thing to say that I could have an abortion. My biology really matters to me, and I have been treated poorly because of it. However, after making that point, I stress that my remarks will be about the issue of single-sex spaces and the safety of women. I am probably alone in this room as being somebody who has run single-sex spaces and used the part of the Equality Act that we are here to debate.
We all know that men’s violence against women and girls happens to women. Of course violence happens to men and, frankly, if someone needs services because they are a victim of domestic or sexual violence, I do not care which category they fall into—they are 100% entitled to expect access to those services. But the Equality Act has to allow for the fact that we need different kinds of services for different people’s needs, understandably. The Equality Act is a carefully balanced piece of legislation that recognises that women and men—let us be honest, it is less men—need protection from sex discrimination.

As part of that, women need to be able to have separate services, associations, charities and sports.The majority of victims of domestic violence are women, and they are much more likely to be seriously hurt or killed. We must be really careful to protect our intricate and finely balanced services for women. I am already seeing again and again that specialist women’s services are being decommissioned in favour of generic support services that have an all-or-nothing approach. This has almost nothing to do with trans people initially; it is entirely to do with the fact that they are expected to support men’s services as well. Services are being decommissioned, and there are situations where perpetrator and victim are in the same service. That is happening across the country. It is utterly devastating, and the Government should be looking at commissioning women-only spaces in the Procurement Bill, which we are debating tomorrow. I look forward to hearing everybody who stands up and fights for women-only services today saying the same thing and that they do not want the free hand of the market to decide. They should say that they want specialist women-only services, because the Government refused to put the word “woman” in the Domestic Abuse Bill and the Online Safety Bill—it is funny how they are keen on it now. I shall be pushing everybody who speaks in this debate to vote on that basis tomorrow.

Organisations are afraid of not getting funding and of authorities thinking that they have to have an all-or-nothing approach. It is a reality that we are already seeing. Part of the problem is the confusion and fear about the law. Believe me, it is our role as parliamentarians to sort that out, no matter how hard it might be. It cannot be left to the courts, and it cannot be left to individual women’s services to muddle through and fight legal battles. Believe me when I say this happens, because it happened to my organisation when we refused to interview a man for a job. These are small organisations with very little in the way of support.

The public service equality duty is one of the most important parts of the Equality Act, and it requires public service providers to consider the needs of different groups. When I was a commissioner of services on Birmingham City Council, I insisted on the commissioning of domestic abuse services for LGBT victims, and on having specialist services for south Asian women where I live. I think we should have specialist services for disabled people, because they have specific needs. At the moment, I feel that we are leaving some smaller organisations in a difficult situation. Along with Women’s Aid nationally, I believe that we should be able to provide sex-only services and that other services must be available.”

Jess Phillips has not always been so clear, nor supportive........and she is fairly high profile, so maybe KJK perceives an opportunity here? Not to win, of course - but to draw attention to the issue.

Besides, there is also the issue of her Jess Phillips large Muslim constituency which would definitely not be supportive of Labour's policy on trans 'equality' and the general Labour disposition towards the whole concept of 'trans'.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 15:06

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 15:00

Jess Phillips has not always been so clear, nor supportive........and she is fairly high profile, so maybe KJK perceives an opportunity here? Not to win, of course - but to draw attention to the issue.

Besides, there is also the issue of her Jess Phillips large Muslim constituency which would definitely not be supportive of Labour's policy on trans 'equality' and the general Labour disposition towards the whole concept of 'trans'.

KJK said that, despite all JP says, she's never once come out in support of Rosie Duffield which KJK says speaks volumes about JP's integrity and credibility (paraphrasing).

I think she just wants to be able to get JP to come out and say that no women have a penis and no men should be in women's spaces (basically to agree with the PoW's 'manifesto').

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 15:09

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 15:06

KJK said that, despite all JP says, she's never once come out in support of Rosie Duffield which KJK says speaks volumes about JP's integrity and credibility (paraphrasing).

I think she just wants to be able to get JP to come out and say that no women have a penis and no men should be in women's spaces (basically to agree with the PoW's 'manifesto').

Yes, maybe she has an eye on prising open the divisions in the Labour party itself on the issue?

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 15:47

Datun · 02/06/2024 13:21

You'd think they'd be chomping at the bit to reassure women, but perhaps not

Plenty of women are reassured. The Party's policy on gender was well received by members.
You don't speak for all women.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 15:48

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 15:47

Plenty of women are reassured. The Party's policy on gender was well received by members.
You don't speak for all women.

And neither do you or the party members. Works both ways!

Edit: many posters across MN are concerned about this issue. There are loads of names I don't recognise from this board posting their concerns on GE threads.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 16:07

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 15:47

Plenty of women are reassured. The Party's policy on gender was well received by members.
You don't speak for all women.

Not the women for whom this is an important issue. You seem to forget the way women have been treated by their own party and by their trade unions, and how they continue to be badly treated when it comes to this issue.

Those that received it "well" clearly want to believe that Labour has fundamentally shifted its stance. It hasn't, though.

Datun · 02/06/2024 18:41

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 15:47

Plenty of women are reassured. The Party's policy on gender was well received by members.
You don't speak for all women.

It's not about speaking for women. It's about labour coming up to scratch about what they mean.

Labour can't keep talking about women, if they're including men with a GRC.

Legal women, or biological women?

If they've actually addressed that specific distinction, I've missed it.

Have they?

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 18:42

Datun · 02/06/2024 18:41

It's not about speaking for women. It's about labour coming up to scratch about what they mean.

Labour can't keep talking about women, if they're including men with a GRC.

Legal women, or biological women?

If they've actually addressed that specific distinction, I've missed it.

Have they?

Neither can the Conservatives. Yet they appear to get a pass on here.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 18:52

Well we'll see what the manifesto contains in relation to that. They're at least considering clarifying it. Which is way more than Labour can say. (Seeing as the Tories love to leak before doing, I'd say there's a high likelihood of it being in there.)

https://x.com/allisterheath/status/1769293039002939815?s=46

KJK is standing against Lloyd Russell-Mole in the General Election
AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 19:00

Oh goody. More mulling. Can't wait.

Datun · 02/06/2024 19:14

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 19:00

Oh goody. More mulling. Can't wait.

Adam, we are now coming to the crux of this.

If you feel that labour are going to reassure women about exactly what a woman is and where men with a GRC are allowed, we are all going to find that out in the next few weeks.

Personally, I can't wait for them to bring it on.

You?

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 19:24

If Labour are unequivocal in their manifesto, I'd be amazed!

The silence is deafening re Atkins' emergency legislation. I can't see their 'safe spaces' weasel words being clarified anytime soon. We'll just be expected to trust them!

Boiledbeetle · 02/06/2024 19:27

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 19:24

If Labour are unequivocal in their manifesto, I'd be amazed!

The silence is deafening re Atkins' emergency legislation. I can't see their 'safe spaces' weasel words being clarified anytime soon. We'll just be expected to trust them!

Until they start using the words single sex rather than safe we know that they still include men in their definition of woman.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 19:29

Boiledbeetle · 02/06/2024 19:27

Until they start using the words single sex rather than safe we know that they still include men in their definition of woman.

Edited

Exactly!

They think we're bloody stupid.

When are the manifestos due? I'm bored of waiting now! I've never been the patient type.

BlackForestCake · 02/06/2024 19:40

The Labour Party has always been full of people like Jess Phillips, who will say the right thing if you kick their arses enough, but in the end it’s empty words. Support people who say the right thing unprompted.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 19:42

Datun · 02/06/2024 19:14

Adam, we are now coming to the crux of this.

If you feel that labour are going to reassure women about exactly what a woman is and where men with a GRC are allowed, we are all going to find that out in the next few weeks.

Personally, I can't wait for them to bring it on.

You?

I don't think any of the "serious" parties want to touch it. My prediction is if any of the bigger parties say they will repeal the GRA it will be Reform - and they are lunatics who promise the moon on a stick (zero waiting lists in the NHS, zero net migration AND lower taxes).

I think Labour will stick to the statement from last year and make reassuring noises about the GRA not overriding the EA and ensuring that service providers understand their obligations under the EA.

I think the Tories will either say nothing or make some kind of non-commitment to "consider" it. Which they've been doing for 18 months.

So for me repealing the GRA/ some males recognised as legally female is a non starter.

If some males can be recognised as legally female it depends when and where exemptions are applied and Labour at least are openly talking about the need to do that.

I know you don't agree. What I object to is this idea "the Left" will somehow be worse for women than "the Right" on the basis of nothing at all.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 19:48

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 18:42

Neither can the Conservatives. Yet they appear to get a pass on here.

We're talking about the Labour Party.

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