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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KJK is standing against Lloyd Russell-Mole in the General Election

1000 replies

BoreOfWhabylon · 23/05/2024 14:20

Grin https://www.youtube.com/live/vHudcvW0bSQ?si=kj-pX6z_ioL6l3nj

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/live/vHudcvW0bSQ?si=kj-pX6z_ioL6l3nj

OP posts:
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42
NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 10:55

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 10:48

Also, pointing something out once is not "an obsession". Jumping on it and implying there must be an agenda because a particular poster said it might be. Confused

Not everything is all about you and you alone, you know. You're not the only Labour supporter pointing it out.

Hyperions · 02/06/2024 10:56

It's like talking to an AI Bot

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 10:58

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 10:55

Not everything is all about you and you alone, you know. You're not the only Labour supporter pointing it out.

Really? Who else has? Maybe other people are pointing it out because it's "a thing". I.e. many people have noticed it.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 10:58

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 10:52

As I said upthread, I think some of the things KJK has posted will be pretty repugnant to most Muslims. The "English girl in a kebab" video for example. The tweets on the WPUK page.

A quick scroll through her twitter shows she's pro-IDF too so that's likely to not appeal to Muslims who are leaving Labour due to their stance on Gaza.

I'd not rely on stereotypes of Muslims to assume they will flock to vote PoW on the basis of "single sex spaces". Especially not when Labour have already committed to protecting single sex spaces too.

How many times do detractors need telling that she doesn't care about how many votes she gets. It's not about votes, it's about getting the message across.

And you need to stop mentioning the (exceptionally sad) Blackpool case. You know damn well that some posts about that were deleted on a recent thread due to speculation / misrepresentation. Yet here you are trying to draw people into a discussion about it again. Just stop.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 10:59

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 10:58

Really? Who else has? Maybe other people are pointing it out because it's "a thing". I.e. many people have noticed it.

Maybe you should AS, as per your advice to me? 🤷‍♀️ You're the one who cares so much about it.

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 11:01

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 10:59

Maybe you should AS, as per your advice to me? 🤷‍♀️ You're the one who cares so much about it.

Yep

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:03

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 10:52

As I said upthread, I think some of the things KJK has posted will be pretty repugnant to most Muslims. The "English girl in a kebab" video for example. The tweets on the WPUK page.

A quick scroll through her twitter shows she's pro-IDF too so that's likely to not appeal to Muslims who are leaving Labour due to their stance on Gaza.

I'd not rely on stereotypes of Muslims to assume they will flock to vote PoW on the basis of "single sex spaces". Especially not when Labour have already committed to protecting single sex spaces too.

That is not the point. She is not there to win votes. She is there to to highlight the isue of trans ideology and its impact upon women and children, and to drive any existing wedges further apart.

Most people do not think in tribal political terms - whereby if you don't like one idea then you must automatically reject all other ideas if they come from the same mouth. People can generally recognise that you don't have to agree with everything one person says, to think they speak sense on other issues.

Labour have not committed to protecting anything - for the reason they cannot protect something if they cannot define what that thing is in the first place.
Obviously sussed political thinkers already know this - even if the average voter takes the words at face value. KJK's job is to highlight the reality behind the words.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/06/2024 11:04

This reply has been withdrawn

Message withdrawn as it refers to a deleted post.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:06

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:03

That is not the point. She is not there to win votes. She is there to to highlight the isue of trans ideology and its impact upon women and children, and to drive any existing wedges further apart.

Most people do not think in tribal political terms - whereby if you don't like one idea then you must automatically reject all other ideas if they come from the same mouth. People can generally recognise that you don't have to agree with everything one person says, to think they speak sense on other issues.

Labour have not committed to protecting anything - for the reason they cannot protect something if they cannot define what that thing is in the first place.
Obviously sussed political thinkers already know this - even if the average voter takes the words at face value. KJK's job is to highlight the reality behind the words.

Edited

My point is I don't think she's going to get any coverage as an independent candidate in a contested seat.

I've campaigned for a local independent myself before and getting any coverage at all was extremely hard. And even when we did 99% of people were not interested and were focussed on the main parties.

I find her strategy where she can't even pick a constituency interesting. Maybe I'll be proved wrong.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:09

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 10:43

In elections, the amount of media airtime nationally is strictly controlled to the proportional size of the party. She's got no chance of getting airtime and she knows it. This is about clicks and videos on her YouTube channel. It's self promotion, not promoting "a cause"
drive existing wedges further apart.
I agree with this and I find the conscious attempt to divide society upsetting and unproductive. Culture wars are awful.

What you are defining as "a culture war" -is simply a sussed awareness of how politics works, and how to work with the public mood to influence outcomes. All successful politicians know how to do this.

KJK is a populist political operator. She's not stupid. She's picking the seats and constituencies where she thinks she can make some impact, or have some effect....all in pursuit of her political goal which is to turn back the tide of trans ideology.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:12

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:09

What you are defining as "a culture war" -is simply a sussed awareness of how politics works, and how to work with the public mood to influence outcomes. All successful politicians know how to do this.

KJK is a populist political operator. She's not stupid. She's picking the seats and constituencies where she thinks she can make some impact, or have some effect....all in pursuit of her political goal which is to turn back the tide of trans ideology.

Edited

KJK is a populist political operator
I agree and I'm not a fan of populists. Trump and Farage also being good examples if the breed.

Populism is a pernicious, damaging approach to democracy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423.amp

A composite image showing President Trump, Hugo Chazev, and Rody Duterte

What is populism, and what does the term actually mean?

We're told that populism is on the rise - but what exactly does that mean?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423.amp

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 11:15

“Culture war” as a term is a nonsense from men and male focussed politicians / media / other to override women’s voices

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:15

😂of course it is.

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 11:17

🤷‍♀️ it’s your focus you use it all the time

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:18

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:06

My point is I don't think she's going to get any coverage as an independent candidate in a contested seat.

I've campaigned for a local independent myself before and getting any coverage at all was extremely hard. And even when we did 99% of people were not interested and were focussed on the main parties.

I find her strategy where she can't even pick a constituency interesting. Maybe I'll be proved wrong.

I think we get it that your primary purpose and commitment is to ensure that Labour win the election. Everything you say and do has the aim of convincing people to vote Labour - regardless of what Labour say or do.

I think we know that Labour is likely to win the election and with a decent majority - that is not the point. Longer term goals are important and there is a recognition that you have to chip away at something, work at it for a long time, winning battles here and there, if you want to turn the tide on something.

Increasing public awareness is the main goal of those of us who are fundamentally opposed to trans ideology and its manifestations. KJK is simply doing what she thinks she has to do to achieve her longer term aim. I'm not personally a fan girl of KJK - but I can she she has her place - and she is a feisty and brave warrior for her cause.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:19

That's because it's a term with a clearly understood meaning that describes what I see happening with KJK.
Language is useful in how it evolves to describe contexts.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:21

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:12

KJK is a populist political operator
I agree and I'm not a fan of populists. Trump and Farage also being good examples if the breed.

Populism is a pernicious, damaging approach to democracy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423.amp

I know what populism is. If you ignore the voices and concerns of ordinary people then populists appear who speak for them. Populists voice popular views - those which are often outlawed or dismissed by the elite.

Whether or not we " like them" is irrelevant to their impact.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:21

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:18

I think we get it that your primary purpose and commitment is to ensure that Labour win the election. Everything you say and do has the aim of convincing people to vote Labour - regardless of what Labour say or do.

I think we know that Labour is likely to win the election and with a decent majority - that is not the point. Longer term goals are important and there is a recognition that you have to chip away at something, work at it for a long time, winning battles here and there, if you want to turn the tide on something.

Increasing public awareness is the main goal of those of us who are fundamentally opposed to trans ideology and its manifestations. KJK is simply doing what she thinks she has to do to achieve her longer term aim. I'm not personally a fan girl of KJK - but I can she she has her place - and she is a feisty and brave warrior for her cause.

😂Hardly! They don't need my help. They are over 20 points ahead in the polls. I doubt my MN wittering has much to do with it.
However, when they do win I might channel my inner KJK and claim "I never lose!"

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 11:21

Language = power structures and “culture wars” is gender ideology and male focused not pro women.

Same as all the other gender based language.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:23

EasternStandard · 02/06/2024 11:21

Language = power structures and “culture wars” is gender ideology and male focused not pro women.

Same as all the other gender based language.

"Culture wars" is about way more than gender. It's really about political or tribal "wedge issues". Jon Ronson's podcast is a good place to get some insight.

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:25

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 11:21

😂Hardly! They don't need my help. They are over 20 points ahead in the polls. I doubt my MN wittering has much to do with it.
However, when they do win I might channel my inner KJK and claim "I never lose!"

We know that......We know Labour will most likely win.

So what is it is it that drives you to repeat the same arguments all of the time - if not commitment to your cause? What is that cause if not " getting rid of the Tories" and hoping people vote Labour?

Uipott · 02/06/2024 12:09

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:03

That is not the point. She is not there to win votes. She is there to to highlight the isue of trans ideology and its impact upon women and children, and to drive any existing wedges further apart.

Most people do not think in tribal political terms - whereby if you don't like one idea then you must automatically reject all other ideas if they come from the same mouth. People can generally recognise that you don't have to agree with everything one person says, to think they speak sense on other issues.

Labour have not committed to protecting anything - for the reason they cannot protect something if they cannot define what that thing is in the first place.
Obviously sussed political thinkers already know this - even if the average voter takes the words at face value. KJK's job is to highlight the reality behind the words.

Edited

If the aim is to highlight trans ideology and its effect on women and children, why pick a candidate to run against who publicly supports single sex provision and a biological definition of sex? It makes no sense. There are so many Labour politicians who haven’t taken this stance, where there would be a meaningful wedge.

This is what Jess Phillips said in the Sex Matters debate in Westminster Hall last year:

”The status quo is not working. People who are speaking in the debate probably feel anxious about doing so, and that is not a status quo that I recognise—for those of us on either side, if we have to have sides.
Sex and gender are different. I have never met a trans person who denied that over the years of having robust debate with them. In my life, the discrimination I have suffered at the hands of establishments, rather than just everyday sexism, has always been exclusively because of my biology. The obvious examples I could give are related to pregnancy. I was told not to bother to turn up for interviews because of pregnancy scan appointments, and that I was too young to decide whether I wanted to be sterilised at the age of 28, whereas my husband, just three years older than me, was allowed to make that decision without anyone batting an eyelid. I had to get two doctors to sign a thing to say that I could have an abortion. My biology really matters to me, and I have been treated poorly because of it. However, after making that point, I stress that my remarks will be about the issue of single-sex spaces and the safety of women. I am probably alone in this room as being somebody who has run single-sex spaces and used the part of the Equality Act that we are here to debate.
We all know that men’s violence against women and girls happens to women. Of course violence happens to men and, frankly, if someone needs services because they are a victim of domestic or sexual violence, I do not care which category they fall into—they are 100% entitled to expect access to those services. But the Equality Act has to allow for the fact that we need different kinds of services for different people’s needs, understandably. The Equality Act is a carefully balanced piece of legislation that recognises that women and men—let us be honest, it is less men—need protection from sex discrimination.

As part of that, women need to be able to have separate services, associations, charities and sports.The majority of victims of domestic violence are women, and they are much more likely to be seriously hurt or killed. We must be really careful to protect our intricate and finely balanced services for women. I am already seeing again and again that specialist women’s services are being decommissioned in favour of generic support services that have an all-or-nothing approach. This has almost nothing to do with trans people initially; it is entirely to do with the fact that they are expected to support men’s services as well. Services are being decommissioned, and there are situations where perpetrator and victim are in the same service. That is happening across the country. It is utterly devastating, and the Government should be looking at commissioning women-only spaces in the Procurement Bill, which we are debating tomorrow. I look forward to hearing everybody who stands up and fights for women-only services today saying the same thing and that they do not want the free hand of the market to decide. They should say that they want specialist women-only services, because the Government refused to put the word “woman” in the Domestic Abuse Bill and the Online Safety Bill—it is funny how they are keen on it now. I shall be pushing everybody who speaks in this debate to vote on that basis tomorrow.

Organisations are afraid of not getting funding and of authorities thinking that they have to have an all-or-nothing approach. It is a reality that we are already seeing. Part of the problem is the confusion and fear about the law. Believe me, it is our role as parliamentarians to sort that out, no matter how hard it might be. It cannot be left to the courts, and it cannot be left to individual women’s services to muddle through and fight legal battles. Believe me when I say this happens, because it happened to my organisation when we refused to interview a man for a job. These are small organisations with very little in the way of support.

The public service equality duty is one of the most important parts of the Equality Act, and it requires public service providers to consider the needs of different groups. When I was a commissioner of services on Birmingham City Council, I insisted on the commissioning of domestic abuse services for LGBT victims, and on having specialist services for south Asian women where I live. I think we should have specialist services for disabled people, because they have specific needs. At the moment, I feel that we are leaving some smaller organisations in a difficult situation. Along with Women’s Aid nationally, I believe that we should be able to provide sex-only services and that other services must be available.”

Datun · 02/06/2024 12:20

We know there are loads of different strands to this ideology, and we know that many people's knowledge of it is superficial.

You could go after the 'men can grow a cervix', 'let's put rapists in women's prisons' brigade.

That would show up direct, unequivocal lunacy.

Or you could question someone who understands a lot more about feminism and get to the endpoint in a much shorter amount of time.

If you have to wade through who's got a cervix, you're very unlikely to get to the 'exactly what spaces will you let a GRC holder into?' part. Or the intricacies of a spousal exit clause.

Jess Phillips knowledge will mean that she could be questioned about things far more in-depth.

You won't get bogged down with what is a woman, you will be able to go straight to let's talk about the exemptions in the equality act.

You're going to get different strategies, with different people.

AdamRyan · 02/06/2024 12:39

RebelliousCow · 02/06/2024 11:25

We know that......We know Labour will most likely win.

So what is it is it that drives you to repeat the same arguments all of the time - if not commitment to your cause? What is that cause if not " getting rid of the Tories" and hoping people vote Labour?

Edited

Well, I could ask the same of you.
It's a discussion board. People discuss things? And tend to use their own beliefs and values to inform the discussion?

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