Emma Barnett and Gillian Keegan.

[heldinadream]

Today prog R4 now - Emma holding GK to account!
16/05/24 8.45 been going on about 10 minutes really worth listening to!

Obviously I can't give you evidence of people, who bar an internal examination, you couldn't tell were transgender. Clearly they don't go around advertising it.

But as an example, even though the Transwoman called Miriam hadn't had genital surgery, 6 men on that tv reality show were completely fooled. And they got pretty close up and personal. One later claimed he knew along, but I think that claim was to save his reputation.

I'm approaching this from the middle. I haven't made up my mind on the subject.

You didn't answer my question.

Is it suggested that all transwomen use the women's toilets rather than men's, especially to spy on or threaten women? I assume since you use the word sneaking, that you do think that.

"Are we going to have laws that say, if a man 'passes' as a woman, he has the right to be in female only spaces?"

No of course not. It would be unworkable, not least because few toilets even have an attendant to check.

And so, as I suggested earlier. If all transwomen are a threat, then we should surely have a law that makes being transgender (impersonating a woman) illegal. Make it a prison offence.

Isn't that the best solution? Outlaw being transgender.

Given that Labour will win a landslide victory in the coming general election, who will you vote for?

Starmer or Sunak? You know where both stand on transgender issues.

Starmer maybe being a bit coy lately, but it's clear what he really thinks.

surgically endowed with a functioning penis (PHALLOPLASTY)

"Functioning". What function, exactly? An organ which is not an organ, but a flap of skin harvested from elsewhere on the body. Which has to be made mechanically "erect". Which does not ejaculate because a transman is a woman. Does the transman climax during phalloplasty "intercourse"? In what way is it "functioning"?

So many questions, so many quote marks.

'Endowed' just doesn't fit with butchering healthy bodies.

It may well be considered butchery, but it works. It's no more artificial than a fake replacement hip joint is it? And nobody objects to those, do they?

"The sensitivity of the penis can be divided into two components: on the one hand, we have sensitivity to touch, heat and pain – that is, the sensitivity we have in any body part. On the other hand, we have erogenous sensitivity, specific to certain parts of the body, such as the penis or clitoris. Both sensitivities are present after phalloplasty. The first, thanks to the union of a nerve from the phallus to one of the nerves in the leg. The second, thanks to the union of a nerve from the trans man’s penis to a nerve from the clitoris."
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/phalloplasty-for-gender-affirmation

Nobody care to answer these questions then?

Should being transgender be illegal?

Who will you vote for, Starmer or Sunak?

Sorry, but I watched that Miriam documentary. One man was filmed saying that he thought Miriam was trans whilst on the programme, this footage was even included in the documentary, the producers then evicted him because he had already guessed.

Not sure why you are altering facts?

No one has suggested that being transgender should be illegal. Why should they?

There are alternatives to vote for that are neither Labour nor Conservative.

Toilets are designed to accommodate biological functions.

Women's toilets are designed for far more biological functions than men's. It's not just pissing and pooing, obvs.

Women have to deal with many issues. Menstrual issues. Flooding. Blood on their hands, their clothes, underwear. They have to deal with leaking breasts when they're breastfeeding, again a clothes issue, underwear. Morning sickness. Many women throw up regularly in the toilets, for weeks on end. Most miscarriages happen on the toilet. Etc.

Men, no matter what their personal self-image, will have zero experience of any of this. The entire situation will be completely novel and beyond their limitations.

Women will feel self-conscious at the best of times, even in front of other women who have been through the exact same thing. But the last thing they want to have to deal with is the presence of ignorant men.

Especially men who don't respect their boundaries or those men who are quite happy to violate their boundaries through deceit.

Women's biological functions, and the spaces they need in which to do them, are not therapy for dissatisfied men.

No one has suggested that being transgender should be illegal. Why should they?

I have. Because so many people seem so vexed by the very idea of transgender. Keegan says she accepts transgender women as if they are fully transitioned. But clearly some here consider all transgender to be no more than an impersonation which threatens the dignity and safety of women. So why not make transgender illegal if they pose a threat in any way at all?

Ok, I haven't seen that. 5 out of 6 were fooled.

What other alternative? Reform? They won't win.

2020? Keegan has always been a TWAW believer. As recently as 2023 she, as Secretary of State for Education claimed the there was no need for a legal definition of of "girl".🤯

I was shocked by her appointment to Education by PM Sunak in 2022 who at that stage had said he knew what a woman is.🙄

Datun.
That's a very good and full answer. Thank you. I still ask, if nobody is aware that a transwoman is in the toilet, then how will anybody be upset?

I assume you will say something like, the mere fear of it. And that makes sense.

Whether it is believed by people here or not, I know for a fact (and no I am not going to present evidence), that there are undetectable (for want of a better word) trans women using female toilets, and nobody else in them at the time, has been aware of it and hence not upset at all.

So it seems to me that to stop that, all trans gender people should all be made easily identifiable, and also making transgender transition illegal, would solve the problem in the longer term.

Perhaps some kind of insignia on the forehead?

I forgot to put the link.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714929-gillian-keegan-guidance-does-not-need-to-legally-define-what-a-girl-is?page=1

But as an example, even though the Transwoman called Miriam hadn't had genital surgery, 6 men on that tv reality show were completely fooled. And they got pretty close up and personal. One later claimed he knew along, but I think that claim was to save his reputation.

Have you actually watched the original series? It's available online. At least two of them did work it out. The one you mentioned was ejected in the first episode, he was quite open about it to the others and they discussed it when Miriam wasn't there.

Thank you. I still ask, if nobody is aware that a transwoman is in the toilet, then how will anybody be upset?

This was already answered, by me. Please stop being so disingenuous. Have a little empathy for women's privacy and dignity, it isn't hard to wrap your head around. My analogy was perfectly valid.

Ok, I haven't seen that. 5 out of 6 were fooled.

No, more than one suspected, plus the first guy was very open about what he thought.

But in a way GK was right. People like her naively put trust in Stonewall and Mermaids et al as being knowledgeable, even about badly written, confusing laws. They thought of them as being serious institutions.

They thought these groups were compassionate and altruistic advisers about trans people, including children, said to be marginalised, suffering and likely to die.

No one realised they were just campaign groups using Denton principles to imbed their beliefs throughout society - even government, the judiciary, the NHS so of course education too - based on unfounded ideas about sex and gender, and also Queer theory, all the while piggy-backing on Gay rights which the public were now more familiar with.

Also, Miriam was a slight Mexican who took hormones in early teens. The overwhelming majority of U.K. males are never going to be convincing as women.

OFSTED would have been delighted with the worst offending materials about Gender that had been bought in. That’s my guess.

Whether it is believed by people here or not, I know for a fact (and no I am not going to present evidence), that there are undetectable (for want of a better word) trans women using female toilets, and nobody else in them at the time, has been aware of it and hence not upset at all.

How do you know nobody was aware?

Even if you were there, you werent everyone in the room, you don't know what anyone else thought.

It needs to be made clear to men that it's unlikely that they pass enough to be undetected in womens spaces, especially when girls are likely to be there. I dont understand why its so difficult for them to see this.

I have

I should have said that no one sensible thinks that being transgender should be illegal. You can’t make something that someone believes illegal.

What you can do is require single sex spaces and services be just that, not conflate sex with gender, and not claim that anyone can change their sex through cosmetic surgery.

Many women will try not to react when they clock an MTF, because they are scared both of unpredictable, often unstable males, and being singled out as a bigot.

This.

You must be aware of the quite large numbers of non western trans women coming to live on the uk. They too take hormones from a very very young age.

Who will you vote for? Sunak or Starmer?

With Starmer, there will be more transgender rights, not less. Reform is a wasted vote.

I've been to SE Asia several times and met transsexual males there, and you still get that uncanny feeling even then. Males don't often fool women, because we've evolved to be wary of strange men.