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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Emma Bunton

182 replies

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 09/05/2024 16:46

Emma Bunton has posted a picture tribute for her son Tate's 13th birthday with a hashtag #shesmybaby. The 3 young people pictured all have long hair so my initial thought was 'her son must be trans'.

KJK has posted a video saying if she calls her son she/her then she's a child abuser. Not sure what to make of it. I get where KJK is coming from but child abuser?

I couldn't see any other threads on this.

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TempestTost · 13/05/2024 05:34

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Lots of parents have affirmed even with personal misgivings, because that's what the experts told them is correct. None of us know what went on in EB's family.

Italianita · 13/05/2024 08:22

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

OolongTeaDrinker · 13/05/2024 08:29

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 00:18

I'm not willing to call parents doing what they are told by doctors and supposed experts is the right thing, abusers. I can be rather blunt at times, but I think that is a shit thing to do.

I don't know what EB was told by the people around her, or whether she was pushing for something, or what, but it is certainly not the case that this only happens with kids if the parents are the main pushers. Plenty pick it up in school.Nor do I know to wht extent EB is someone who would feel able to go outside of what the experts advised her and do her own research. Not everyone is equally able at that kind of thing.

By all means call the protocols and advice and ideologies anti-scientific, dangerous, wrongheaded, or even perverse. But unless KJK is quite sure that she could never, in the face of expert advice, make a real error with regards to her kids medical treatments, I think she is being a bit of a shit in this instance.

And any parent who is aware of their vulnerability to errors where their kids best interests are concerned will be less likely to see her as a down to earth lady protecting kids and more likely to see her as a blowhard know it all.

Edited

But why did she need to tell the world on social media if it wasn't for attention? How is this the right thing for her confused child? Surely this information should be for friends and family only, and there should always be an easy way for a child to change their mind or grow out of a phase without being labelled as something. It's harder to back down from something or change one's mind, the more people know about it and have you pigeon-holed.

I do think it is abuse to encourage anyone, particularly an impressionable child, to think that being born in the wrong body is a real thing and not an impossibility. I'm all for people being gender non-conforming, but fundamentally a he cannot become a she and vice versa - no matter how hard that Mermaids/Stonewall/etc. push their gender ideology propaganda.

LookAtMyTinyGameBoy · 13/05/2024 08:46

Abuse can still be abuse even if done on the best advice with the best of intentions. Millions of parents have — following what were to them the very highest and most trustworthy of authorities, and wanting only the best for their children — beaten their kids for bad behaviour. But most parents on MN wouldn't hesitate to call instilling discipline by regular beatings a form of abuse, regardless of the intent, or the advice of moral or religious authorities.

OldCrone · 13/05/2024 08:51

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 05:32

And what does that have to do with the price of fish? The Cass report has been around for all of five minutes. Mums have been advised by doctors for years now that they need to affirm. Cass hasn't even filtered down in a complete way through the medical community, or to create new policy, why would you think that regular mothers would be up on all of it?

Many many people do not decide what to do about medical questions by investigating the research themselves. They rely on what their doctors - not any doctors, but the specific ones they entrust their kids care to - have told them. I don't see why a singer in a pop band for teen girls would be expected to somehow be above that, she is a regular mum in the end.

The interim Cass report (published over 2 years ago) said that social transition is not a neutral act and advised against it.

Which doctors do you think have advised parents to socially transition their children? GIDS? From what I can gather, most GPs just make a referral to GIDS (or the new gender clinics) as soon as gender is mentioned rather than offer advice. But most children who are socially transed by parents or teachers have not even seen a doctor for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

And if a child is under the care of a child gender clinic, I can't imagine that doctors would be advising their parents that they should be splashing their child's transition all over social media.

WallaceinAnderland · 13/05/2024 11:32

Lots of parents have affirmed even with personal misgivings, because that's what the experts told them is correct.

No one needs a medical expert to tell them that humans can't change sex.

People are so prissy about being 'kind' that they are harming children to satisfy men. Yes it's abusive.

Think about it. For just one second, stop parroting slogans and actually think about what is happening to these poor, neglected kids.

Why are people so stupid about this. She knows he can't change sex. Why is she pretending he can.

This is so harmful. What is he going to do when all those body changes make him so different to the girls he's friends with. When his voice deepens, his feet grow and he shoots up and broadens. This leads to so many other complications like ED to restrict growth and wanting to be medicalised to stop puberty.

Why would she, as a parent, actively want to make that happen to her son? Where are her protective instincts. And his dad too. He needs someone looking out for his welfare, not posting his private body dysmorphia on social media for woke points.

Yellowbananasarebetterthangreen · 13/05/2024 11:55

I think KJK is right on this. Socially transitioning a child IS child abuse imho.

WickedSerious · 13/05/2024 12:14

I wonder what sort of 'experts' those parents have listened to?

Ones like Susie Green perhaps?

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 13/05/2024 12:48

WickedSerious · 13/05/2024 12:14

I wonder what sort of 'experts' those parents have listened to?

Ones like Susie Green perhaps?

Who knows? Sadly, it might even have been a senior clinician who was unduly influenced by Susie Green, Mermaids, Stonewall, the general materials in the NHS.

Wasn't Green actively advising and referring children to Carmichael/GIDS?

WickedSerious · 13/05/2024 13:20

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 13/05/2024 12:48

Who knows? Sadly, it might even have been a senior clinician who was unduly influenced by Susie Green, Mermaids, Stonewall, the general materials in the NHS.

Wasn't Green actively advising and referring children to Carmichael/GIDS?

Yes she was,even when their doctors had advised against it.

GerbilStyle · 13/05/2024 15:24

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 05:32

And what does that have to do with the price of fish? The Cass report has been around for all of five minutes. Mums have been advised by doctors for years now that they need to affirm. Cass hasn't even filtered down in a complete way through the medical community, or to create new policy, why would you think that regular mothers would be up on all of it?

Many many people do not decide what to do about medical questions by investigating the research themselves. They rely on what their doctors - not any doctors, but the specific ones they entrust their kids care to - have told them. I don't see why a singer in a pop band for teen girls would be expected to somehow be above that, she is a regular mum in the end.

It's got everything to do with stopping unnecessary lying and manipulation of children. Plus I think the price of cod has gone up quite a lot recently

Livinginaclock · 13/05/2024 17:08

A millionaire singer could afford the best doctors in the world, with the best research, but chose this path.

pinkdays · 13/05/2024 21:29

Yellowbananasarebetterthangreen · 13/05/2024 11:55

I think KJK is right on this. Socially transitioning a child IS child abuse imho.

In fairness, if it was me in that position and doctors etc said the best thing is to affirm and so on then that's what i would've done. It's easy to be theoretical about stuff but when it's your own child you'd do anything for their happiness. I've had a situation where my child was experiencing difficulties and if a doctor had told me the best thing was to paint her blue, I would've.

I'm thankful it's a situation I've never had to deal with.

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 21:55

OolongTeaDrinker · 13/05/2024 08:29

But why did she need to tell the world on social media if it wasn't for attention? How is this the right thing for her confused child? Surely this information should be for friends and family only, and there should always be an easy way for a child to change their mind or grow out of a phase without being labelled as something. It's harder to back down from something or change one's mind, the more people know about it and have you pigeon-holed.

I do think it is abuse to encourage anyone, particularly an impressionable child, to think that being born in the wrong body is a real thing and not an impossibility. I'm all for people being gender non-conforming, but fundamentally a he cannot become a she and vice versa - no matter how hard that Mermaids/Stonewall/etc. push their gender ideology propaganda.

As far as I understand it this was just a birthday photo. thousands of people post a birthday photo of their kids on FB. Even celebrities. Not everyone thinks it's a great idea, but it's not abuse. If her family has been guided down the affirmation pathway they've been told they should be using the new name and pronouns, but it's still essentially a birthday photo.

I don't think this is the same as using the kid as a prop which we've certainly seen some parents and celebrities do.

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 22:08

LookAtMyTinyGameBoy · 13/05/2024 08:46

Abuse can still be abuse even if done on the best advice with the best of intentions. Millions of parents have — following what were to them the very highest and most trustworthy of authorities, and wanting only the best for their children — beaten their kids for bad behaviour. But most parents on MN wouldn't hesitate to call instilling discipline by regular beatings a form of abuse, regardless of the intent, or the advice of moral or religious authorities.

It's an interesting, but academic question whether parents in the past who beat their kids, or smacked them, according to social norms, with their best interests at heart, were abusers. I don't think the answer is by any means settled.

Maybe a more useful academic exercise would be to say, if five years from now we find that kids who received the COVID vaccine are at serious risk of some negative outcome, would we say that parents who had followed the advice to vaccinate, were in fact abusers? Or parents who encouraged kids to mask, if that were later shown to lead to some problem?

What if there was a period when the science started to suggest there could be a problem, but much of the dominant social rhetoric claimed that was a conspiracy theory, and local doctors seemed to be quiet about it, or even to agree that it is misinformation? If a parent trying to navigate that followed what had been the dominant narrative and perhaps still was in some circles, with the best of intentions, are they abusers?

What's the purpose, the supposed benefit, of accusing the individual parent in such a case, where you know almost nothing about the actual situation in that family or what has happened, of being an abuser?

There is none. It's either to make yourself feel good by being righteous, or by being cruel - to a family that may well have to face the bad results of making the wrong choice. It's much less effective at convincing anyone than addressing the real pushers of the ideology in schools, the media, and health services would be.

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 22:13

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 13/05/2024 12:48

Who knows? Sadly, it might even have been a senior clinician who was unduly influenced by Susie Green, Mermaids, Stonewall, the general materials in the NHS.

Wasn't Green actively advising and referring children to Carmichael/GIDS?

I know the woman that led the gender services at the big general hospital near me. Avery well respected pediatric psychiatrist. She is nuts, but very well thought of and totally captured.

As are many people in health services.

I mean, people post stuff about this, about the bad stuff parents are being told, all the fricking time here. So now all of a sudden it's crazy that a mother who is probably just very average and not especially well educated might have run into these kinds of people?

No one is saying it's a good medical decision. But that parents who are under the influence of these asshats are victims. Which again - we hear is many other posts all the time. Why would EB somehow be immune to this stuff?

OolongTeaDrinker · 13/05/2024 22:43

TempestTost · 13/05/2024 21:55

As far as I understand it this was just a birthday photo. thousands of people post a birthday photo of their kids on FB. Even celebrities. Not everyone thinks it's a great idea, but it's not abuse. If her family has been guided down the affirmation pathway they've been told they should be using the new name and pronouns, but it's still essentially a birthday photo.

I don't think this is the same as using the kid as a prop which we've certainly seen some parents and celebrities do.

She included the hash tag #shesmybaby when everyone knows she has two sons. Absolutely no need for that on a birthday post - she is completely media savvy and has over 1m Instagram followers - nothing is ‘just’ an anything photo for someone in her position. So this was a deliberate statement; therefore outing her under age child to all and sundry. The child will not understand the ramifications of doing this even if he gave her permission. This is 100% using him as a prop to show off her ‘credentials’ as a trans mum.

LookAtMyTinyGameBoy · 13/05/2024 22:52

I wasn't asking an academic question TempestTost.

I was addressing a specific argument people were making.

People were attempting to refute the "abuse" label by arguing that the parents love their kids, the parents want to do what's best for their kids, and the parents were following advice from respected experts and authorities. Therefore it cannot be abuse.

Those exact arguments can apply just as much to beating your child as to transitioning your child. (I am not saying these are equivalent acts, I am saying that an identical argument can be made in each case that even if harm is caused, it is not abuse.)

As you say, there would be a lot of disagreement on child-beating. The "loving parents, following respected authority, doing the best they knew how for their kids" argument would not be taken as the last word on whether child-beating is abuse. People arguing that, even in those circumstances, it is still abuse, would be unlikely to be ridiculed as extremists.

Thinking about how the conversation might go if you applied the exact same argument to child-beating as previous posters did to child-transitioning illustrates that a "loving parents, respected authority" situation does not automatically win the argument that any harm caused to the child is not abuse.

I agree that is probably unproductive to tell parents that they've abused their children, but I wasn't posting about productive avenues or winning tactics. Your academic exercise is interesting, but I wasn't attempting to find a parallel situation, either. I was responding to a particular idea that had emerged as part of the conversation, using a different example to show that the statements of the argument don't automatically result in the conclusion. As you pointed out.

Violetparis · 14/05/2024 08:44

Declaring your young male child as a she on social media is at the very least really poor parenting.

Grammarnut · 14/05/2024 08:59

pinkdays · 13/05/2024 21:29

In fairness, if it was me in that position and doctors etc said the best thing is to affirm and so on then that's what i would've done. It's easy to be theoretical about stuff but when it's your own child you'd do anything for their happiness. I've had a situation where my child was experiencing difficulties and if a doctor had told me the best thing was to paint her blue, I would've.

I'm thankful it's a situation I've never had to deal with.

I agree, we do tend to trust doctors. It makes things very difficult. A realisation that gender dysphoria is a mental condition is more likely to help, though, and here is where I think abuse also comes in. Affirmative care was taken onboard without the research to back it - very dangerous.

DieselEstate · 12/08/2024 03:14

"If her son is 13 then he's not trans. Transitioning is an action that only adults can take. Children can believe they are trans but they can't actually be trans."

Sarah 2891,
My thoughts exactly.
Thank You for wording it so well.

DieselEstate · 12/08/2024 03:37

OldCrone,

A wise point of view.

I am really dreading the backlash that is being stored up. For when the generation/s that have been socially transed by parents wishing to be fashionable, realise the irreversible damage done to them in future . . .

A significant minority in two or three cohorts, of sterile, hormone reliant replicants that have been created by image fascinated, social media mesmerised parents whose failure in their Duty of Care to their children is abhorrent.

Crispynoodle · 12/08/2024 05:09

I thought that this was very good in relation to celebs trans kids

MadameMassiveSalad · 12/08/2024 07:08

JamesPringle · 09/05/2024 17:30

Calling her a child abuser is ludicrous. KJK is working very hard to discredit the whole GC movement imo. These kinds of ridiculous comments overshadow the balanced, reasonable arguments that many people have carefully formed due to concern about children taking puberty blockers, having life-changing surgery etc. KJK is doing the GC movement no favours at all.

Agree.

MadameMassiveSalad · 12/08/2024 07:18

I can't see anything on her instagram

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