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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
Boiledbeetle · 03/05/2024 13:01

Just catching up on the last few days. From Justine:

"We also have concerns about Aston’s ethical approval process"

Don't we all!!!

In other news my gerbil purchases are due tomorrow!

AlisonDonut · 03/05/2024 13:39

Mine has crossed the sea and is sitting in import apparently.

Winnading · 03/05/2024 13:42

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 03/05/2024 10:15

I think one of the things anyone who is worried about Aston / other university data scraping can do is ask MN to delete all their past posts. As I understand it, you have this right under GDPR / DPA law. I am certainly considering doing this.

I did this many days ago, no response. I reported one of my posts and got a reasonable reply but they are unwilling to dfe. If I want to delete certain posts I can report each post and they will delete. Which means me going back through user names and posts to report individual ones.
I most certainly dont have the time for that.
I'm as yet undecided what to do next.

Winnading · 03/05/2024 13:49

And I finally ordered a t and a tote. Steampunk version.

Due next week.

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 14:27

Winnading · 03/05/2024 13:49

And I finally ordered a t and a tote. Steampunk version.

Due next week.

🎶Free postage🎶sing the gerbils, like sirens.

RethinkingLife · 03/05/2024 15:21

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 14:27

🎶Free postage🎶sing the gerbils, like sirens.

Have the gerbils had a surge in orders?

Some very brave women bucked the system and stood up for women and children, and it didn't go down well with the men, but time told. Thinking about Mary MacKillop.

Thank you for mentioning this remarkable woman. I'd heard nothing about her and would urge others in a similar position of ignorance to remedy that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_MacKillop

Mary MacKillop - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_MacKillop

GrimbutGerbil · 03/05/2024 15:31

@RethinkingLife The gerbils thank you for asking. They have had a good day, but not the best day ever. However, they are hoping that a rainy bank holiday weekend just after payday and with free shipping may keep them busy.

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/grimbjt-baseball-shirt/

Grimbjt baseball shirt

The gerbils are getting carried away but I can't stop them.

https://grimut-gerbils.teemill.com/product/grimbjt-baseball-shirt/

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 16:06

Winnading · 03/05/2024 13:42

I did this many days ago, no response. I reported one of my posts and got a reasonable reply but they are unwilling to dfe. If I want to delete certain posts I can report each post and they will delete. Which means me going back through user names and posts to report individual ones.
I most certainly dont have the time for that.
I'm as yet undecided what to do next.

That seems a bit odd. I know other users have had all their posts deleted. MN do it sometimes with a bad troll, I think?

RememberTheRecyclingBins · 03/05/2024 16:40

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 16:06

That seems a bit odd. I know other users have had all their posts deleted. MN do it sometimes with a bad troll, I think?

Ok, to get deleted, each of my online names might have to suddenly develop the persona of a 'bad troll' with nasty habits? I'm rubbing my hands in glee at some of the potential squabbling.

I've found a site which says a group of trolls is often known as ' a mischief' in folklore. It will go nicely with witches, rodents and other familiars etc. Off to do some more research.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 03/05/2024 17:02

What if a banned poster, but not a troll, wanted a complete delete? eg someone like LangCleg?

If MN say copyright belongs to individual posters, surely we should all be able to request a DFE at anytime, regardless of current membership status or whether the data is held by MN or in Ashton’s basement?

Talulahalula · 03/05/2024 18:13

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 16:06

That seems a bit odd. I know other users have had all their posts deleted. MN do it sometimes with a bad troll, I think?

Yes, there was a poster many moons ago called BuffytheVampireSlayer (or some play on that) and her posts were all deleted at her request. She gave me some really helpful advice on a thread I posted once on the feminist support thread (now no longer existing). And then there were holes where her useful advice had been. I went back a while later to thank the posters and let them know that I had not, despite considering it, gone back to the relationship I was posting about 🥳

Winnading · 03/05/2024 19:07

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2024 16:06

That seems a bit odd. I know other users have had all their posts deleted. MN do it sometimes with a bad troll, I think?

I was wondering if DFE for many of us would leave a lot of blank space?

Maybe there really is 6 of us.

AstonUniversityScrapedMyCorpus · 03/05/2024 19:51
Grin
IwantToRetire · 05/05/2024 21:32

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:32

I'm a long-standing, quite senior Aston academic (very different discipline though) & I've been following this with genuine embarrassment. I've created this shiny new MN account just to post on this thread, but have been around a long time.

I agree with much of what's been said already, including that this should never have got research ethics clearance (assuming of course that it did...), so I won't repeat that.

I just wanted to add some insider perspective, which I hope might be interesting/useful.

Apologies for the next paragraph sounding a bit like Aston PR. It's context. I will move on to something a bit more critical!

On the whole, Aston is generally very liberal. I'm GC (actively), & have never felt the need to hide my views at work. It's a very diverse community - lots of our students have difficult circumstances, & most academic staff work really hard to support students through issues like racism, financial difficulty & poor mental health. I've worked across HE, but I've now been at Aston a very long time, & nowhere else has been this apolitical. Everyone's just too busy dealing with shit, frankly, & there's a lot of it (some of which I'll come to)

Many courses have a compulsory placement year, and all have a technical/applied focus (even disciplines like History). This is because one of the things Aston likes to sell itself on is "usefulness" (in both teaching and research). I first came across the forensic linguistics work at Aston when I was at another university, & at that time, it was very much in this tradition - developing tools to keep children safe in online spaces, for eg. It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston, for lots of reasons. However, i do work in a very different area, so maybe there's a whole ton of this type of thing going on & I'm just not aware of it.

Bits of the university are deeply, deeply sexist (HE is in general, IME, but Aston has a special brand of it). I can easily believe that it didn't occur to anyone involved (including female academics) that women posting here are also people. The misogyny at Aston is a whole other thread, but I absolutely think it's been a factor here, in the initial scrape and the uses to which the data has been put. We don't (generally) have issues with gender ideology harming women. We just have good old fashioned women-hating. It's like a little time machine (& has got worse since the VC came in a couple of years ago)

The VC himself is ruthlessly ambitious for himself and the institution. Having seen him in action, my guess would be that he's putting significant effort into protecting the university (I assume he's taken expensive legal advice). At the same time, I'm pretty confident those involved will be having a very hard time, even if that's being kept quiet. I doubt very much he's just waiting for it all to die down, but I also doubt he'll say much in public.

He wants people to talk about our graduate salaries, social mobility, contribution to the regional economy. He absolutely won't want people talking about an unethical study with significant methodological flaws!

I'm really proud of some aspects of what Aston does, & I work with some incredible people (genuinely the kind of people you would want your kids to be supported by if they were at university). I guess any big -ish institution will have its share of arseholes, & we definitely do. No one from Aston has covered themselves in glory here.

Have only just started on thread 3 and was wondering if it would be worth while as the other had drifted off.

But thank you so much for posting this.

Really helps to get an IRL perspective on how this could have happened.

IwantToRetire · 05/05/2024 21:57

Have only just caught up having last posted somewhere back in the middle of thread 2.

Appreciate that Justine is following this through and keeping us up to date.

And although in a jokey way I said on thread 2 it was shocking that no MSM papers had caught up on this situation, I am wondering why.

I assume (but might be wrong) some universities have done this to other sites, where posters may have different concerns than those on FWR.

But it seem this is an issue that maybe should be more widely discussed or made known.

For instance if not all, but parts of MN became private discussion would that mean it could not be scrapped.

If so, although that is a benefit, and in fact some may feel better able to bring up issues than they do now on a public forum, what about the negative to that. ie the FWR gives women who are just readers of threads evidence that their experience, concerns, aren't individual to them, and may get comfort from seeing this.

It is, like so much of the internet, that the positive potential of being able to reach out and make contact and share and support, is then undermined by those who use or exploit that innocent motive, for their own (often financial) interests.

Even if some sort of techie news outlet doesn't think this is a serious issue that they should report on, I would like to think that some academic, university focus news outlet, would want to write up what has happened here, to instigate discussion and more importantly inform academics what is or is not appropraite behaviour.

Maybe now is too soon and we need to wait until Justine has finished her interrogation of Aston, but I hope this isn't then just brushed off as a one off.

NormaSnorks · 05/05/2024 22:12

I'm a bit behind on all this, but am surprised to see that Aston hasn't removed publications like this while the legality of the situation is resolved?
https://publications.aston.ac.uk/id/eprint/33358/

Is this all as a result of the same data scrape?

Usernames have been redacted, but I guess posters might still recognise their own contributions?

I see Aston says:
If you have discovered material in Aston Research Explorer which is unlawful e.g. breaches copyright, (either yours or that of a third party) or any other law, including but not limited to those relating to patent, trademark, confidentiality, data protection, obscenity, defamation, libel, then please read our Takedown policy and contact the service immediately ([email protected])

Aston Publications Explorer

https://publications.aston.ac.uk/id/eprint/33358

ArabellaScott · 05/05/2024 22:29

Interesting.

(excerpts from the paper linked above)

'Special thanks must go to the Mumsnet users who allowed me to reproduce their posts, originally written with quite a different audience in mind, in my study. Thanks especially to xxxxxx and xxxxxx, whose generous engagement with my research cannot be underestimated in the development of my approach to internet research ethics.'
'
'Some key insights garnered through observation, and developed through subsequent reflection and analysis, include my growing understanding and appreciation of the norms of participation, interaction and sharing within the Talk forum. Observing the site through the eyes of a participant,bfor example, I have been able to recognise that my research has the potential to cause harm through violation of users’ expectations. Such insights have had a significant effect on the ethical decision-making process for this study'

'I use QSR International’s qualitative data analysis software, NVivo 10 (2012), to preserve sampled threads in a static format, which can be accessed for later reference and analysis. Using NVivo’s ‘NCapture’ function, I save threads in their original format and transfer them into an NVivo project space. By using this function, rather than copying and pasting text into a word file or using screenshots, for example, I am able to retain threads from the Mumsnet discussion forum in full, including all the idiosyncrasies of their original context. I integrate new threads into my project space over time, so that it gradually comes to resemble the kind of ‘log’ of interaction that Herring(2004) places at the centre of her ‘Computer Mediated Discourse Analysis’. I describe this collection as a ‘corpus’, which I define as a structured set of naturally occurring texts, albeit quite a small one in this instance. Once threads have been captured and saved in this way, I am able to access, annotate and code them within my NVivo project space'

't became clear to me that a lot of Mumsnet users value their sense of privacy and anonymity very highly, with many exercising their autonomy and agency in imaginative ways to control and shape the accessibility of their posts and the degree to which they are identifiable as single users. As an observer-participant, I was able to recognise the potential for my research to cause harm through violation of such norms and to re-evaluate my ethical choices accordingly. One of the most significant changes I made as a result of these considerations was to contact all of the Mumsnet users whose words I wished to quote, and/or analyse in detail, and ask for their informed consent. By seeking consent, I gave potential participants the power to decide for themselves whether or not they were happy for their posts to be used for research purposes. Subsequent amendments to my research ethics approval form reflect this shift in my approach and the steps I took to protect my research participants. For example, I state in my second version of this form (see Appendix I) that ‘Although the Mumsnet Talk forum is explicitly public, I believe that there is uncertainty regarding what users perceive to be ‘public’, and how they anticipate their interactions will be used. I therefore… seek informed consent from participants whose contributions will be analysed in detail, and potentially quoted in publications or presentations’. These amendments were also approved by the ethics committee at Aston University'

'I make it very clear in this message that silence will not be interpreted as consent; in other words, contributors who did not respond were not included in
the study. Samples of consent from participants included in this study can be found in Appendix K. My message also gives contributors the option to have their usernames anonymised. Several participants have chosen this option, despite already using pseudonyms, and have subsequently been given new names that retain the spirit of their original username. The fact that many
participants made this choice shows that ‘anonymity’ is a complex matter of protecting individuals’sense of privacy and dignity, and respecting the steps they have taken to control which selves they present to the world. However, guaranteeing anonymity is unfortunately not a straightforward process when data are collected online because quotes can often be traced back to the original source through a web search'

RethinkingLife · 05/05/2024 23:24

Re: above 2 posts, from Arabella's extracts, it seems as if the author handled the MN posts and posters appropriately and with due permission and consents.

duc748 · 06/05/2024 00:02

In this instance.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 06/05/2024 00:24

duc748 · 06/05/2024 00:02

In this instance.

which proves it can be done. It’s obviously a lot more work for the researcher but the resulting data is a lot stronger for it.

ArabellaScott · 06/05/2024 06:41

This was an individual who made what I think was a sensible, ethical, and considered choice. Including adjusting her.methods when she realised the potential for harm.

Aston ethics department worked with her on it.

They should ask her to train the rest of the staff.

AlexaAdventuress · 06/05/2024 07:40

I see that thesis linked above is dated 2016, so around eight years ago. The work it's based on would have been done even earlier. So they used to know how to do things sensitively but it seems they've forgotten in then meantime. Like barbarians living in the ruins of a formerly great civilization because they don't know any better.

Talulahalula · 06/05/2024 07:47

Ah, I didn’t realise Jai McKenzie had done her PhD at Aston. I posted extracts from something she had written on the Site Stuff thread as an example of how MN could be used ethically. She had written a chapter on digital interactions in an edited collection if I recall. I said it should be used as a primer for the doxy dudes at Aston. She was considerate of issues of anonymity and consent.

Jai MacKenzie’s data was not part of the data scrape, as the data scrape was done in 2019 and then again in 2024. Jai collected her material in 2014 and contacted users where she wished permission to use their material in publications and also contacted MN (MN are thanked in the acknowledgements of the book above as well and the copyright permissions noted).

Not all use of MN threads is unethical - however, I guess the thing is most people were not thinking about research use when they were posted, they were thinking about writing for and to a digital community of other women, mainly but not only mothers.

RethinkingLife · 06/05/2024 09:14

Jai MacKenzie’s data was not part of the data scrape, as the data scrape was done in 2019 and then again in 2024. Jai collected her material in 2014

Off-topic for this researcher but the data scrapes date back to 2008 iirc (EP's research had the range 2008 to 2023 with the one in Jan 2024 for her benefit).

Talulahalula · 06/05/2024 09:38

You raise a valid point.
I was going by the content of Justine’s post which I have extracted below. Also in the 2019 presentation the doxy dudes state that they got the funding (or they had started the project) a year previously, so 2018 (I might be mid-remembering about the funding, I would need to go back and check). But you are right that this includes data on the site which goes back many years before then. For example, with the material from the adoption board, the identifiable post from Tim Grant’s book chapter was 2016.
So the data scrape would capture posts from however far back they go, not only 2019 and 2024.

Nonetheless, Jai’s PhD data is from 2014 and completed before the data scrape was done. They are two separate projects, which is the point I was trying to clarify.

edited - I forgot the image, I will post separately

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