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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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JudgyGarland · 05/05/2024 13:07

Oh and having Nearly Headless Nick telling Harry when he is searching for a way to see Sirius again that such things are studied in the Department of Mysteries, suggests that the veil is there to allow Wizards to try and study what happens after death. Very typical of the ministry to try and control/tame/manipulate death in that way and fits the themes of political overreach pretty well.

PriOn1 · 05/05/2024 19:51

Thank you @NonPlayerCharacter and @JudgyGarland

I very much appreciate your thoughts and insight.

GwenogJones · 06/05/2024 00:22

@PriOn1 I don't accept that Sirius died so I don't have much of an analysis to offer.
But I think the veil is never explained because death is unknowable. It is in the Department of Mysteries and each room represents an element of the universe that the unspeakables are researching: there is prophecy, time, the brains (thought?) I think there might be a locked room where they study love, and then there is the veil - which is death. Whether the unspeakables are studying the veil itself or if they are studying death by using the veil, I'm not sure.

There are never any answers because there can be no answers to death while you are alive. So the loss of Sirius with no body and no explanation represents not just the finality (from this side at least) but also the mystery.

The way Harry and Luna (who have lost people they loved) can hear voices beyond the veil, while those who haven't lost someone can't, suggests a continued connection between those who died and those who still love them. This echoes what Dumbledore tells Harry back in book one and suggests that - while Dumbledore can't know about death - he has one of his very good ideas, which tend to be accurate. And he is proven right in Deathly Hallows, when Harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back his parents and Sirius just before his own sacrifice.

The resurrection stone is the opposite number of the veil, it brings back shadows of the dead to the land of the living. Although the veil represents the unknowable nature of death, the resurrection stone (when used for non-selfish reasons) represents a form of hope. The Sirius who falls through the veil is old before his time and broken, he is frustrated and suffering and has lost almost everything that matters to him. The Sirius who comes back via the stone is "tall and handsome and younger by far than Harry had ever seen him", in death he has been renewed and made whole again - he has found his redemption.

The books are actually very death-positive, if such a thing exists, in that they are very clear on the need to respect the natural order of things and that things that are natural need not be scary. Dumbledore says "to the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure", but Voldemort has destroyed his soul and committed unspeakable evil in order to avoid dying. The irony being that, in splitting his soul, he makes death something he needs to fear. The importance of a complete soul, gained by living a good life, so that one might "greet death as an old friend and depart this life as equals" is an ongoing moral throughout the series.

Sirius's death and subsequent (very brief) resurrection show us he had nothing to fear, his soul was intact, his death was "quick and easy as falling asleep" and his coming back shows us that death is never truly the end for those who are loved. His return gives us hope.

But at the time, from Harry's perspective stuck on this side of the veil, he only has grief and regret, a sense of unfairness and not being able to understand - and it is to underline how the living cannot understand or comprehend death that the veil is never given an explanation. We can only guess at it, and explain it away in ways that make personal sense to us, without ever knowing if we are right.

PriOn1 · 06/05/2024 08:48

Thank you @GwenogJones

I really appreciate your thoughts, though your very first sentence opens up a whole new mystery! 🤣

If you ever start a website with your Harry Potter analyses, please drop me a line.

NonPlayerCharacter · 06/05/2024 08:50

@GwenogJones , why don't you think that Sirius died?

Dineasair · 06/05/2024 10:27

GwenogJones · 06/05/2024 00:22

@PriOn1 I don't accept that Sirius died so I don't have much of an analysis to offer.
But I think the veil is never explained because death is unknowable. It is in the Department of Mysteries and each room represents an element of the universe that the unspeakables are researching: there is prophecy, time, the brains (thought?) I think there might be a locked room where they study love, and then there is the veil - which is death. Whether the unspeakables are studying the veil itself or if they are studying death by using the veil, I'm not sure.

There are never any answers because there can be no answers to death while you are alive. So the loss of Sirius with no body and no explanation represents not just the finality (from this side at least) but also the mystery.

The way Harry and Luna (who have lost people they loved) can hear voices beyond the veil, while those who haven't lost someone can't, suggests a continued connection between those who died and those who still love them. This echoes what Dumbledore tells Harry back in book one and suggests that - while Dumbledore can't know about death - he has one of his very good ideas, which tend to be accurate. And he is proven right in Deathly Hallows, when Harry uses the resurrection stone to bring back his parents and Sirius just before his own sacrifice.

The resurrection stone is the opposite number of the veil, it brings back shadows of the dead to the land of the living. Although the veil represents the unknowable nature of death, the resurrection stone (when used for non-selfish reasons) represents a form of hope. The Sirius who falls through the veil is old before his time and broken, he is frustrated and suffering and has lost almost everything that matters to him. The Sirius who comes back via the stone is "tall and handsome and younger by far than Harry had ever seen him", in death he has been renewed and made whole again - he has found his redemption.

The books are actually very death-positive, if such a thing exists, in that they are very clear on the need to respect the natural order of things and that things that are natural need not be scary. Dumbledore says "to the well organised mind, death is but the next great adventure", but Voldemort has destroyed his soul and committed unspeakable evil in order to avoid dying. The irony being that, in splitting his soul, he makes death something he needs to fear. The importance of a complete soul, gained by living a good life, so that one might "greet death as an old friend and depart this life as equals" is an ongoing moral throughout the series.

Sirius's death and subsequent (very brief) resurrection show us he had nothing to fear, his soul was intact, his death was "quick and easy as falling asleep" and his coming back shows us that death is never truly the end for those who are loved. His return gives us hope.

But at the time, from Harry's perspective stuck on this side of the veil, he only has grief and regret, a sense of unfairness and not being able to understand - and it is to underline how the living cannot understand or comprehend death that the veil is never given an explanation. We can only guess at it, and explain it away in ways that make personal sense to us, without ever knowing if we are right.

That’s a beautiful analysis, thank you.

Dineasair · 06/05/2024 10:39

Datun · 02/05/2024 00:16

And Radcliffe didn't have a 'difference of opinion.'

He had the fucking nerve to apologise to the fans of her books, for what she said.

"To all the people who now feel that their experience of the books has been tarnished or diminished, I am deeply sorry for the pain these comments have caused you

if you found anything in these stories that resonated with you and helped you at any time in your life — then that is between you and the book that you read, and it is sacred. And in my opinion nobody can touch that. It means to you what it means to you and I hope that these comments will not taint that too much."

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

WickedSerious · 06/05/2024 12:00

BloodyHellKenAgain · 02/05/2024 12:39

When did allegations of racism and anti-semitism arise against JKR?

I suspect it was about the same time that TRAs realised 99.9% of people don't agree with genderwang and moreover think JKR makes some good points. It was invented purely as another stick to beat JKR with and is obviously without foundation.

Yep,whataboutery bollocks at it's most pathetic.

GwenogJones · 06/05/2024 12:01

@NonPlayerCharacter - I know he died (he came back from the dead - which you have to be dead to do).

I mean I don't accept it. I have my fingers in my ears and am refusing to listen. He is in his sixties living happily in a cottage with Remus, they have gnomes in their gardens and toads in the pond, a boggart in their coal cellar which Remus keeps driving out and it keeps coming back, and buckbeak lives in their apple orchard. Harry brings his family round for Sunday lunch.

AstonUniversityPotholeDepartment · 06/05/2024 12:14

Abhannmor · 05/05/2024 11:03

I thought it was an 80s coinage from the US right wing?

In Britain antisemitism is more often conveyed by North London Cosmopolitan, or ' citizens of nowhere ' - all used by the right wing UK media during Ed Millibands leadership of Labour.

I did not realise that was what 'citizens of nowhere' meant at the time! Thank you, that's cleared up some things retrospectively.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/05/2024 12:16

Wasn't "citizens of nowhere" a Theresa May-ism?

BezMills · 06/05/2024 12:34

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/05/2024 12:16

Wasn't "citizens of nowhere" a Theresa May-ism?

I felt like it was aimed at the likes of me - skilled UK workers who were mobile in the EU. We didn't matter because we were clearly Britishing wrong

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/05/2024 12:38

BezMills · 06/05/2024 12:34

I felt like it was aimed at the likes of me - skilled UK workers who were mobile in the EU. We didn't matter because we were clearly Britishing wrong

Yes, that's what I thought too.

It was a dig aimed at the people who were upset about the loss of their free movement, something like, "If you believe you are a citizen of everywhere, you are a citizen of nowhere."

But then confusingly the Tories abolished the 15 year voting rule...

MillOnTheGoss · 06/05/2024 17:27

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 06/05/2024 17:29

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