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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/05/2024 10:15

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 02/05/2024 09:35

Even if the first person who depicted goblins in that way was antisemitic, how are we supposed to know that hundreds of years later?

"Hundreds of years"? Some things have been embedded in our culture for hundereds of years and "how are we supposed to know?" is not a good answer. But it's a long way from there to accusing individuals. Or it should be.

I certainly noticed that about the goblins the first time I read Harry Potter not long after the book first came out and long before all these accusations of anti-semitism were thought of. Because this wasn't just a bunch of greedy goblins with their hoard, the "working in the bank" bit pushed the stereotype just a little further and the film emphasised it more with the goblins' appearance.

It was clumsy and thoughtless but not enough for me to think it was worth worrying about or making huge leaps of dodgy logic and throwing accusations about. I didn't then, and I still don't.

Out of interest, what did you notice about the depiction of the goblins in the books which made you think "Jewish trope"?

Because I don't see that in the writing.

The way they were portrayed in the films, perhaps, but a lot of people were involved in that creative process, some of whom were Jewish.

Pudmyboy · 02/05/2024 10:23

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 13:41

The movies are so beloved because of the ensemble of excellent adult actors, the SFX and set designs and most importantly the narrative brilliance which was all down to...guess who...JK Rowling.

Aren’t they remaking them for an HBO TV series? At which point there will be a new “Harry” (and others) and Dan is going to be even less relevant as “the old Harry that couldn’t act”.

Yes this is what I am looking forward to, he has built his career on HP but hopefully very soon he (and the other backstabbers) will be completely forgotten about, or seen as 'old hat' and irrelevant.
I hope the new series is a brilliant success and (spitefully, I know), I hope the ones from the films who haven't backstabbed JKR, get roles in it (even if cameos)

Abhannmor · 02/05/2024 10:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/05/2024 07:37

It is actually possible that goblins, the way they have been represented in hundreds of years of European folklore, are an antisemitic trope. Antisemitism is one of the oldest forms of prejudice after misogyny. But I don't think any individual author can really be blamed for including in their books a fairytale creature and depicting it consistently with how it has been depicted in literature since time immemorial. Even if the first person who depicted goblins in that way was antisemitic, how are we supposed to know that hundreds of years later?

As potentially offensive tropes in Harry Potter go, I'd have said the leprechauns were a more obvious one. But if you complain about the leprechauns in Harry Potter (who appeared in the context of Ireland winning the quidditch world cup and everyone being delighted about it, which strikes me as a pretty positive depiction of the Irish), people are going to think you are being silly.

If you want to cancel someone, "antisemitic" is the accusation you go with. Even if it's completely untrue.

We have no goblin tradition here in Ireland so I've no idea what they're meant to look like. Are they Scandinavian or is that trolls? Leprechauns are often misrepresented as wearing green suits and strange Puritan hats. The racism of Hallmark Greeting Cards. Whereas they wear red caps with an owls feather in real life as eny fule kno. But I digress.

Yes transphobia and antisemitism are the best and easiest smears now , certainly in the USA. The accusation is the verdict. It used to be Communist or 'fellow traveller' , since replaced by Cultural Marxist. Of course antisemitism and racism are real and continuing problems. But since accusations are thrown around Iike confetti , people will start to tune out eventually.

SinnerBoy · 02/05/2024 10:38

MyNameIsFine · Today 09:37

What I find strange is that millions of people were reading Rowling's work for over two decades before someone discovered all the antisemitism and racism. This discovery happened round about the time that she made a comment about women being women. Strange coincidence

Yes, it's a complete mystery, isn't it?

SinnerBoy · 02/05/2024 10:39

Abhannmor · Today 10:25

Please don't use the term " Cultural Marxist", it's Nazi era code for "The Jews."

DameMaud · 02/05/2024 10:55

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/05/2024 18:41

"And any meaningful conversation to protect women's rights / women's spaces won't happen with her leading the movement. Her awfulness is a distraction from the actual issues"

Called it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4849558-the-news-agents-podcast?reply=127665033

And I'm pretty sure I wasn't the first to say it either.

Yes indeed you did FlirtsWithRhinos.
We've just seen exactly that with Billy Bragg too.

DameMaud · 02/05/2024 11:09

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 02/05/2024 08:53

@GwenogJones cracking-yet shattering! - post at 22.48 yesterday, thanks!

Seconding.. or seventhing or so this.
@GwenogJones
Incredible analysis!

(Linking to this comment so people can go back and find it if they missed it)

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 02/05/2024 11:11

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/05/2024 10:15

Out of interest, what did you notice about the depiction of the goblins in the books which made you think "Jewish trope"?

Because I don't see that in the writing.

The way they were portrayed in the films, perhaps, but a lot of people were involved in that creative process, some of whom were Jewish.

I don't remember to be honest. It wasn't an especially strong association in my mind, more a ping (followed by a shrug). She might have been thinking more about the "gnomes of Zurich". Harry Potter is full of puns and associations, that's part of the fun.

a lot of people were involved in that creative process, some of whom were Jewish.

A lot of people = a lot of bystander effect and a lot of "it's probably just me". Plus, it would be a shame to edit out every potential trope.

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 11:27

GwenogJones · 01/05/2024 22:48

For the person who keeps harping on about slavery in Harry Potter - Hermione's elf-rights group is called SPEW (Society for the Promotion of Elfish Welfare) which (and in no way accidentally) shares an acronym with real life SPEW (society for promoting employment for women).

Yes one can read "House elves are slaves" and stop thinking there. But they are actually based on mythological brownies (creatures who will do housework for humans in secret but get very offended and vengeful if you try and pay them) and are being used as an allegory for... house wives and a lack of women's rights.

Dobby is the battered and abused wife who escapes and becomes a feminist. Winky is the divorced / abandoned wife who turns to drink to deal with the societal shame put on her for her "failure". Kreacher is a trad wife, clinging to the benefits he receives by going along with the status quo regardless of how awful the people with power over him may be. House elves are offended when Hermione wants them to be paid because they are part of the family and they are doing this for love, same as house wives don't expect payment for their labour.

And they have absolutely been brainwashed into thinking this is what their purpose is and this is what makes them happy, and it has been going on for so long that no one knows where it started, no one even sees the unfairness and it is simply accepted as "the way things are".

Hermione - as the female lead of the story - is not locked in a battle to free the slaves, she is locked in a pseudo battle for women's rights. And she finds herself banging against the twin barriers of a) all the humans laughing at her (even the nice ones) and telling her this is the way it's supposed to be, it's "unkind" to the elves to change things and refusing to take her seriously because the oppression runs so deep they simply cannot see it and b) fighting for a people who themselves are resisting what she is offering because they believe themselves to be happy and in their rightful place.

Both these problems have been encountered by nascent women's rights organisations the world over. Hagrid refuses to listen to Hermione - he is the man who is perfectly lovely but just doesn't get it; we've all met them. He sees what he wants to see, he benefits from the system, it doesn't affect him negatively in any way and so he is happy not to think about it further and dismisses change as against the natural order. And the elves are like the women who argued and stood against the suffragettes. They don't want or need rights because they feel the system works for them as it is. It is only the Dobbys - who are cruelly abused - that seem to get that things are wrong, and even he can't overcome all of his conditioning (the way women can't let go of their guilt when they try to stand their ground and don't put everybody else before themselves).

Hermione is having to navigate a lack of support from all sides, and outright hostility form the very people she is trying to help, just as early feminists did (and later ones still do). And she's a headstrong teenager, she doesn't get her activism right. But she slowly convinces other young people that the status quo is not OK - culminating in Ron's suddenly thinking of the House Elves in the middle of the Battle of Hogwarts. And Dumbledore is supportive of her and backs her belief in fair treatment of Elves and both he and Hermione criticise Sirius and lay the blame for Sirius's death not on Kreacher but on Sirius's treatment of Kreacher.

The Black family are interesting, because Kreacher is loyal to the bad Blacks while hating the good one - and from Harry's perspective this is originally framed as Kreacher being a "bad" elf in direct contrast to Dobby who was a "good" elf. But the difference between them isn't their moral compass, it is their treatment by their families. Dobby is abused by the Malfoys and so hates them and betrays them and, as the Malfoys are bad, Dobby does things that help our protagonist and thus are "morally good". Kreacher has been well treated by the majority of the Black family but is mistreated by Sirius, and so hates him and betrays him. Because Sirius is a good character this frames Kreacher as being morally wrong. But both Elves are responding to their abuse in the same way (betraying their abuser and helping their enemies), and it is the wider politics of the owners and not actually the Elves' actions that determine whether the Elves themselves are seen as "good" or "bad".

And this is eventually realised and acknowledged by Harry himself. When Dumbledore suggests that Sirius's treatment of Kreacher was not all that it could be back in ootp Harry gets very angry. But in DH when Hermione says "I always said Wizards would pay for how they treated House Elves - well, Sirius did..." he understands what she means and does not attempt to defend Sirius; he understands the difference in the way the Black brothers treated their elf and how this shaped Kreacher and determined his actions.

Regulus Black is the man who publicly espouses awful views, is a far right bigot - but who treats his "wife" well and seems to genuinely care. Thus Kreacher loves Regulus and echoes his beliefs. Sirius is the right on, lefty, liberal man who says all the right things in public but goes home and beats up his own "wife". And so Kreacher hates him and conspires against him.

The lack of agency the Elves have and the way they view the world through the prism of their treatment by the wizards directly in charge of them echoes the lack of agency women have had throughout history - when denied education and a vote and a voice and even the right to own property, they could only effect change through the men in their lives - and the change they affected would be dependent on who those men were and how they treated the women.

And as to why it's not all sorted and solved by the end of the book. Well, take a fucking good look around at the state of women's rights in the world today, genius. The fight isn't over. The war isn't won. Women are still oppressed (and now JKR is fighting a massive rearguard action on the biggest assault on women's rights and attempts to take us backwards that has happened in her life time). Of course Hermione did not solve the problem in the three years she had between identifying it and the series finishing.

But even if you want to go with the surface level (and frankly amero-centric) slavery interpretation. That wasn't fixed in three years either. To expect a teenager to fix centuries of slavery in four books is frankly ludicrous, and to criticise the books for not tying it all up in a neat bow is just stupid.

The House Elf story line is a sub plot which serves to show us, the reader, and Harry as the main character, that the wizarding world is not the fuzzy friendly, whimsical refuge from the Dursleys that he (and we) originally viewed it as. It isn't a bunch of good guys and this one bad wizard who can be defeated by love, it's much darker, with systemic oppression and injustices that even the good characters fall prey to and can't see. There is corruption in government, there is lazy thinking and actual rotten sentiment that allows Voldemort to operate. And yes - they successfully take down Voldemort - but the rest of it is a bit more complex and it is going to take a bit more than a wizard's duel to put it right. The books itself don't have room to go into the complete reconstruction of magical government (not really appropriate for a children's story) but the later writings of what the characters do with their lives and in their careers show us that they did work towards making things better and Hermione got much further in helping the House Elves once she was in the Ministry than she did as a teenager.

Just because you do not understand the House Elf subplot does not make JKR problematic.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Fantastic post, best analysis I’ve seen yet.

Mmmnotsure · 02/05/2024 11:45

@GwenogJones
That was fascinating. Thank you.

SidewaysOtter · 02/05/2024 12:15

Brilliant post from @GwenogJones , I hadn’t thought of it like that.

As for “When did allegations of racism and anti-semitism arise?” I suspect they became a handy peg on which to hang additional criticism of JKR. Look what a terrible person she is! Racist and anti-semitic so it follows that she’s transphobic too, right?! Hmm

It’s a bit like Friends, when it was rereleased on Netflix in 2018 suddenly it was “problematic”.

OP posts:
SidewaysOtter · 02/05/2024 12:20

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 02/05/2024 08:52

Complete detail but how did I miss Sirius being so awful to Kreacher? Sad Feel so sad about that!

It was when he was forced to stay at Grimmauld Place in The Order of the Phoenix, and eventually he shouted at Kreacher to “get out” which was Kreacher’s cue to seek out the Malfoys and their pure blood to tell all that he could.

Sirius hated Kreacher as a representation of the family he loathed but, to be fair to Sirius (a character I never particularly warmed to), Kreacher hated him too as someone who had betrayed his pure blood roots. Kreacher was particularly foul to Hermione, calling her a mudblood.

OP posts:
NonPlayerCharacter · 02/05/2024 12:25

SidewaysOtter · 02/05/2024 12:20

It was when he was forced to stay at Grimmauld Place in The Order of the Phoenix, and eventually he shouted at Kreacher to “get out” which was Kreacher’s cue to seek out the Malfoys and their pure blood to tell all that he could.

Sirius hated Kreacher as a representation of the family he loathed but, to be fair to Sirius (a character I never particularly warmed to), Kreacher hated him too as someone who had betrayed his pure blood roots. Kreacher was particularly foul to Hermione, calling her a mudblood.

But as the stupendous post from @GwenogJones said, he was only reflecting the views of his masters who treated him well in a world where he had no rights at all. That doesn't make it an OK thing to say, but it's a sign of how the bad Blacks understood and respected his power and importance in a way Sirius didn't. Hermione understood that and never held him responsible the way she did when humans like Malfoy said it...and even then, she claimed the term with pride.

JudgyGarland · 02/05/2024 12:25

SidewaysOtter · 02/05/2024 12:20

It was when he was forced to stay at Grimmauld Place in The Order of the Phoenix, and eventually he shouted at Kreacher to “get out” which was Kreacher’s cue to seek out the Malfoys and their pure blood to tell all that he could.

Sirius hated Kreacher as a representation of the family he loathed but, to be fair to Sirius (a character I never particularly warmed to), Kreacher hated him too as someone who had betrayed his pure blood roots. Kreacher was particularly foul to Hermione, calling her a mudblood.

Sirius also said he hoped the elf had died when they couldn't find him, was constantly criticising him and his cleaning 'the house Getting blacker by the day'.
I assumed Sirius' treatment of Kreacher must have been historical, considering when he left his home and why.
However, I also suspect Sirius suffered at least one kind of abuse by his parents, so it's really just an abuse cycle.

BloodyHellKenAgain · 02/05/2024 12:39

When did allegations of racism and anti-semitism arise against JKR?

I suspect it was about the same time that TRAs realised 99.9% of people don't agree with genderwang and moreover think JKR makes some good points. It was invented purely as another stick to beat JKR with and is obviously without foundation.

StainlessSteelMouse · 02/05/2024 12:42

Not having a goblin tradition in Ireland, I don't know much about that, but it's very likely old European folklore got mixed up with antisemitic stereotypes at some point. And if it's a subcurrent in folklore maybe hardly anyone notices.

What I do know is that so much of the nitpicking over "problematic tropes" is both silly and obviously motivated. What takes me to the fair is people who aren't Irish getting very annoyed about Seamus Finnigan, as if this is some absurd name that no Irish person would have. Most Irish readers were probably thinking "hang on, I know at least five Seamus Finnigans".

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 02/05/2024 12:53

JudgyGarland · 02/05/2024 12:25

Sirius also said he hoped the elf had died when they couldn't find him, was constantly criticising him and his cleaning 'the house Getting blacker by the day'.
I assumed Sirius' treatment of Kreacher must have been historical, considering when he left his home and why.
However, I also suspect Sirius suffered at least one kind of abuse by his parents, so it's really just an abuse cycle.

I agree. I don’t warm to Sirius either, but I think that shows the excellence of the writing and the depth of character he’s been given. He’s portrayed as someone who is on the correct side of good v bad when it comes to fighting an evil ideology/Voldemort, and has a lot of love to give by trying to be a substitute parent to Harry. But has a lack of self awareness on his own individual actions and blindness to his own weak points like his recklessness. I hadn’t fully thought through that he’s probably still dealing with the legacy of his own abuse by his own family. His treatment of Kreacher and his own death is the outworking of all of that. And Dumbledores ultimate point that Sirius was a grown up that had the choice to act and treat people (including house elves) as he did. PP are bang on when they compared him with right on lefty men who are so convinced of their own correctness they are deaf and blind to other perspectives.

Damn, JKR is good.

JudgyGarland · 02/05/2024 13:14

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 02/05/2024 12:53

I agree. I don’t warm to Sirius either, but I think that shows the excellence of the writing and the depth of character he’s been given. He’s portrayed as someone who is on the correct side of good v bad when it comes to fighting an evil ideology/Voldemort, and has a lot of love to give by trying to be a substitute parent to Harry. But has a lack of self awareness on his own individual actions and blindness to his own weak points like his recklessness. I hadn’t fully thought through that he’s probably still dealing with the legacy of his own abuse by his own family. His treatment of Kreacher and his own death is the outworking of all of that. And Dumbledores ultimate point that Sirius was a grown up that had the choice to act and treat people (including house elves) as he did. PP are bang on when they compared him with right on lefty men who are so convinced of their own correctness they are deaf and blind to other perspectives.

Damn, JKR is good.

Making it somewhat ironic that he is the first character to recognise the battle is less black and white than Harry and the reader originally think, “Yes, but the world isn’t split into good people and Death Eaters,” said Sirius with a wry smile.

Dumbledore expands on it later, but Sirius is the first one I believe to introduce this concept.

AstonCanKissMyArse · 02/05/2024 13:17

Some cracking analysis on this thread 👏

Re the earlier scolders, I think it's interesting and betrays a very naive mindset how some people think that just because a book or film covers a certain theme eg there is a racist character, that means the book itself is racist. Or worse, that the writer actually holds those views. It is possible to write a character that holds views that you, as the writer, personally don't.

And thank goodness, otherwise all books would be very boring with similar, one dimensional characters!

It's lazy or disingenuous in the extreme to attempt to smear a writer based on what one of their characters thinks/ says/ does.

AstonCanKissMyArse · 02/05/2024 13:18

And the old flat-earth type excuse 'I don't have to show you my evidence, I'm just right and you should believe me' argument is out in force 🙄

BezMills · 02/05/2024 13:36

I'd be ashamed to make some of those piss-poor posts up above. Like, what? "How do you even get on the internet?, levels of stupid.

"I'm going to make a username and go and tell the mumnset off, with my amazing brain thunks I am pasting from the dundernet... it's going to be GREAT." ffs pathetic, 0/10.

Beowulfa · 02/05/2024 13:36

I was first alerted to gender woo when I saw a friend posting a pic on Facebook of Rowling being fired out of a Nerf gun, and had to look up what a TERF was. There was a feverish tone to his friends eagerly discussing the now "problematic" characters in HP, including the fact that Cho Chang is Chinese and in Ravenclaw. It made no sense to me at all.

NonPlayerCharacter · 02/05/2024 13:42

Beowulfa · 02/05/2024 13:36

I was first alerted to gender woo when I saw a friend posting a pic on Facebook of Rowling being fired out of a Nerf gun, and had to look up what a TERF was. There was a feverish tone to his friends eagerly discussing the now "problematic" characters in HP, including the fact that Cho Chang is Chinese and in Ravenclaw. It made no sense to me at all.

There's no reference at all to Cho's heritage in the books. She's just called Cho Chang...Korean names, I believe. Could it be that the people claiming she's a racist stereotype have assumed she's supposed to be of Chinese descent?

She was Scottish in the films anyway.

JudgyGarland · 02/05/2024 13:54

Cho couldn't be in Gryffindor as we know all those characters and she was a 'from afar' first crush. Couldn't be Slytherin without calling into question the whole 'are Slytherins all bad' twist too early. So that left Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. I assume Ravenclaw was chosen because at this point everyone thinks the Hufflepuff are stupid stereotype is true as it's Cedric Diggory that breaks that. Also adds to Cedric's rivalry with Harry that she's not in his house so she picked Cedric on a more level playing field.

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 02/05/2024 14:00

JudgyGarland · 02/05/2024 13:54

Cho couldn't be in Gryffindor as we know all those characters and she was a 'from afar' first crush. Couldn't be Slytherin without calling into question the whole 'are Slytherins all bad' twist too early. So that left Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff. I assume Ravenclaw was chosen because at this point everyone thinks the Hufflepuff are stupid stereotype is true as it's Cedric Diggory that breaks that. Also adds to Cedric's rivalry with Harry that she's not in his house so she picked Cedric on a more level playing field.

Imagine what they’d have said if she had put her in Slytherin.

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