If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

[Superlambaanana]

Obviously not. They're men. But how can transwomen insist on being women and then recategorise women as cis women without it exposing their whole position as fundamentally flawed?

This is the nub of the whole trans thing.
The meanings of words, and their semantic overtones, are not defined by the editors of dictionaries. It is through community consensus that meanings are agreed. All dictionaries do is record them, accurately or inaccurately.

@FlirtsWithRhinos
"your body mismatches your personality, your personality must align with the gender stereotypes of your sex"

@LilyBartsHatShop "How do I know whether or not my sense of personal identity matches my sex?"

I'm relatively new to this debate (I don't believe men can be women and haven't been persuaded by any arguments to the contrary yet).

I'm really struggling with the doublethink. So if a man feels he was born the wrong sex, he bases that decision on what he believes it is to be a woman - in almost all transwomen I've seen online that does seem to be based on gender stereotypes around girly, frilly, fairer sex etc. But there also seems to be a big thing on brightly coloured hairdyes to signify non-gender conforming. And I accept my exposure to trans people is very minimal and superficial (all online) so perhaps some transwomen identify as butch lesbians?

As a woman, I don't conform to gender stereotypes, because few people do and especially not in a deliberate, performative way. So if I'm not a stereotypical woman (girly, frilly, fairer sex) am I not a woman in the eyes of transwomen?

Sorry if this is garbled. Genuinely trying to understand this debate. Especially since Labour appears determined to introduce pro-trans policies so I need to better understand the risks and what implications it has for society and me personally.

You're trying to understand a deliberate piece of psychological manipulation. It doesn't make sense because it is intended to go like:
1 men dress like cartoon hookers and call themselves trans women
2 trans women say they are actually women
3 women object to stereotypes
4 transwomen dress like real women, in jeans and t-shirts
5 tadaa! women includes anyone who says they are a woman
6 all women's protections from men are wiped out.

Women are just too nice. Men think it's hilarious that women are so gullible.

As far as I can see, these are the main subtypes of Agender People

Agender Type A : "I couldn't care less about gender / what the hell is gender"

Agender Type B : "Gender is a bag of sexist homophobic shite and should be launched into the sun via an internationally-funded space project"

Agender Type C : "Gender's amazing and mine is super special, bet you can't guess what it is... oh ok I'll tell you anyway, it's AGENDER"

I think the vast majority of people are Type A, gender isn't even something they care about.
People in FWR seem mainly to be type B, quite hostile to Gender because yanno, bag of sexist homophobic shite
Then you have the super special gender people in type C, they're (zhey're etc) doing them (zhem etc)

“… cisgender … a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds to his or her sex at birth … .”

Hmm so my identity as a runner, office worker, environmentalist - how do they correspond to my sex?

I don't think I have a gender - although part of my identity is "mother" so I guess that's a bit 'gendery'? Do all "mother" identities count towards gender, or only the super "mumsy" ones (a la Mrs Weasley)? I guess the one major thing mums have in common is that they birthed a child... but isn't that related to biology?

So many questions! It's almost as though the whole concept of gender is wishy-washy claptrap 🤔

Type B for me!

ETA I just remembered reading some version of this nonsense being "bigender". Which I can only read as Big Ender. Fatarse gender? That'd probably do for me.

Me too, I'll chip in for the rocket!

Could we borrow one of Elon's?

bigender - for when your big gender feelings are too big for just one gender

Or shorthand for "even more confused about the concept of having a personality than the rest of these sexist numbskulls"?

Oh wait - big ender: when you identify as someone who regularly gets close-up views of your cat's pudgy bum.

I don't identify as getting them, I just do.

But @EmpressaurusOfCats I just can’t be arsed.
It is bad enough not remembering all my fucking pin codes and passwords. I do NOT want to have to remember what made up gender I may be granted to identify as at any given day.

Imma stomp my feet!! 😁 I just don’t want to identify as anything, thanks a bunch!
I yam wat I yam

If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

Of course they are, if they say they are, OP. You’re forgetting the basic rules of patriarchy:

A man is whatever he says he is.
A woman is whatever a man says she is.

If I see ‘sex assigned at birth’ much more I swear I’ll implode. Or explode. Can’t decide
I have seen ‘identifies as a transwoman’ used. Quite like that but not as much as
t - i - m

or
t - i- w
At least it’s clearer; so many people just don’t know what is meant when these phrases appear. It would greatly assist understanding

Oh that’s just given me a headache

If I see ‘sex assigned at birth’ much more I swear I’ll implode.

Me too. Makes you wonder why they bother to tell you the baby’s sex during a scan.

Same here tbh! To fit in genderism it would probably need to be "someone who doesn't have a cat or ever encounter one, but identifies as getting a closeup view of said fluffy bum."

And of course greatly assisting understanding is exactly what they don't want. How often does one see "transwoman" used by people thinking it means a woman who wants to be a man? The confusion is a feature, not a bug.

Yes, it is all very confusing. But I am trying to make an effort to understand it, despite my better judgment (which tells me that men just can't be women any more than I can 'identify' as a multimillionaire popstar with a large yacht - though I do feel very strongly that I was born to be one 😊).

There was an AMA thread on here recently in which the OP expressed how their female genitalia made them feel extremely distressed and that led them down the route of surgery to become a 'man'. They didn't seem to have a predetermined view about what it was to be a man - what traits they expected to adopt to become a man etc. It was more about not wanting to be a woman, but they nonetheless found their life had improved greatly by becoming a 'man'.

That opened my eyes to the idea that some trans people do genuinely feel distressed about their own body. Rather than just coveting someone else's. They actually just want to be something, maybe anything, other than what they actually are. Perhaps it would be cruel not to help these people escape their distress. But I find it hard not to believe that they would be better off with help to come to terms with themselves as they are.

If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

Short answer is no

Long answer is apply this to the situation

If snow is water, and water is rain, is snow rain? Also no.
This is the classic example of a geometric proof showing that you can have two very different specific things that both fall under one general term. It is meant to teach students that just because A=B and B=C it is not always a given that A=C

Try this one too

If a cat is a pet, and a pet is a dog, is a cat a dog?

Hope this gets that 💡 lit for you.

I can believe women being distressed at being female, given our biology and the misogyny of all societies. It's a delusion to think we can escape it, though, and the surgeries are appalling (necrotic tissue is often enough the outcome with the fake, functionless "penis" iirc). Not to mention the effects of exogenous testosterone on the female body.

I have extreme doubts that many of the men have any sort of distress. There are far more fetishists there, extreme misogynists. They're the ones driving the movement and its so far highly successful attack on women's and LGB rights.

There are some men who resent being told ‘No’. It upsets them greatly. That is their problem and they should learn how to reframe their trauma.

Shh! They don't like logic. Or women. Especially biological ones with opinions.

@Superlambaanana that thread reminded me of the quip that men are frightened that women will laugh at them and women are frightened that men will kill them.
Trans women are frightened that if they're outed they won't be taken seriously. Trans men are frightened that if they're outed they'll be raped so violently it takes several surgical procedures to repair the damage.
It's such a politically insidious misogyny to try to redraw the words "men" and "women."