Page 3 | If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

Superlambaanana · 2024-04-29T21:53:03+00:00

Obviously not. They're men. But how can transwomen insist on being women and then recategorise women as cis women without it exposing their whole position as fundamentally flawed?

MarieDeGournay · 30/04/2024 08:43

I knew those algebra classes would come in handy eventually!
If XX = A and XY = B, let A = B. Show your workings.

Ingenieur · 30/04/2024 08:52

MarieDeGournay · 30/04/2024 08:43

I knew those algebra classes would come in handy eventually!
If XX = A and XY = B, let A = B. Show your workings.

It's like a mechanics problem.

"Assume a spherical cow in a frictionless vacuum"

"Assume A=B, therefore A=B"

If a person's preexisting biases (unique interpretations) alter the terms sufficiently, the terms begin to become meaningless.

Original poster

Superlambaanana · 30/04/2024 08:52

@RebelliousCow

I like it when threads evolve beyond simple statements of 'I agree' and 'I disagree' into more interesting debates...

I don't think transwomen are a subset of men, though I take your point that that would make more sense in practical terms.

Transwomen are just men. Men/ male/ male bodied/ born male is an immutable set of biological attributes which can't be subdivided anymore than 'woman' can be subdivided.

Categories can start to emerge when we're talking about how we feel, how we act, how we think, how we dress etc. In that sense, transwomen are a category of men who dress and act a particular way.

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Original poster

Superlambaanana · 30/04/2024 08:57

ValueAddedTaxonomy · 30/04/2024 08:36

Cis and Trans are useful ways of communicating details about the many different groups of people who are all women, just like 'tall' and 'short' and 'black' and 'white', but you already know that.

That is nonsense on stilts. For any defined property, there are going to be a range of objects instantiating that property but differing in many other respects. However, there is one way in which they can not, by definition, vary -- ie in respect of whether or not they instantiate that property.
The term "woman" has a meaning. Just like the terms tall and short have a meaning. Women can and do vary in every respect other than the one respect in virtue of which they instantiate the property of being a woman.

If you want to claim that they can vary in that respect, then how can you attach meaning to, say, the idea of "tall women"? Surely you would be committed to saying that there are all kinds of tall women, including women of every possible height. You would be committed to dividing these women into "cis tall women" (ie those who really do instantiate the property of being a tall woman) and "trans tall women" (who don't).

You might also be committed to saying that there are all kinds of "trans women", including those who do instantiate the property of being trans (we could call these "cis trans women") and those who do not ("trans trans women").

Nonsense on stilts.

Excellent. You've just made my point above much better than I did.

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Original poster

Superlambaanana · 30/04/2024 09:00

MrsWhattery · 30/04/2024 08:37

Everything about it falls apart as soon as it’s put to any test of logic.

if anyone can instantly and magically be the opposite sex just by saying so, and other people are meant to respect that and go along with it, sex classes have no meaning at all. It can’t be defined as “whatever I say” any more than you can sort foxes from chickens by sticking random labels on them. It just obliterates the original meaning of the words to the point where’ll you’ll just need new words.

Sex is supposed to not exist and be a social construct, yet oddly enough trans people seem to know which opposite-sex hormones they want to take to try to change the sex of their bodies, and which bits to cut off and emulate. Being “non-binary” means rejecting identifying with either of two sexes. Yet we’re told if we think there are two sexes we didn’t progress beyond primary school biology.

It’s ok for TW to be in women’s sports and changing rooms because sport is unfair anyway, or women can get attacked in a toilet anyway. Women don’t have a physical disadvantage. Women are more violent than men and so on. So why are there women’s categories in the first place and why do males want to be in them?

Self-id is essential because everyone is who they say they are. So that means a male being in a women’s space is not safe, as whoever’s he’s afraid of can also self-Id into that space.

apparently brain scans can prove you can have an opposite sexed brain. But we don’t want brain scans as a test to check who is really trans to avoid people making a mistake or to stop predators exploiting self-Id. Oh no that would be gatekeeing!

sex is a “spectrum” which somehow means you can magically announce yourself to be somewhere on the spectrum that you are not and can never be. But this doesn’t apply to ethnicity, height, disability or age, which are all actually spectrums.

and on and on….

Another excellent post. Thanks.

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TeamPolin · 30/04/2024 09:01

I'm exhausted by the linguistic gymnastics of all of this bollocks....

Original poster

Superlambaanana · 30/04/2024 09:03

TeamPolin · 30/04/2024 09:01

I'm exhausted by the linguistic gymnastics of all of this bollocks....

Agreed. And those demanding we simply accept what is so obviously nonsense are gaslighting on an industrial scale. I really hope Labour take note and follow the NHS and others who are turning away from the nonsense.

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onwardsup4 · 30/04/2024 09:13

Scarletttulips · 29/04/2024 23:00

Fed up with the air time these things are taking up.

The less we question the sooner they stop being the centre of attention and pipe down.

I agree to an extent, as another poster said it really is a load of cobblers that shouldn't even be an argument. I'm happily watching all the backtracking that has started though and will enjoy watching people squirm now its all started to finally unravel

turbonerd · 30/04/2024 09:41

Precisely @MrsWhattery well said.

How DO they know which sex hormones to take if everything is the same and also just a soup of nonsense?

I am not ‘on the same side of’ woman. I am a woman. Also short, which is annoying on occasion. My skin colour is ‘peach’, and my hair has finally got strands of White.

I identify as a pensioner, previous oil exec, filthy rich.

(Am aware that body dysphoria is a thing and would like TRA’s to stop hitching their lunacy to that wagon. Please.)

ElizaMulvil · 30/04/2024 09:41

ButterflyHatched · 30/04/2024 01:30

Congratulations on beating the final boss of satire.

Cis and Trans are useful ways of communicating details about the many different groups of people who are all women, just like 'tall' and 'short' and 'black' and 'white', but you already know that.

The official word for this ideology is codswallop.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 30/04/2024 09:47

Petrine · 30/04/2024 07:54

Trans women don’t have female reproductive organs and certainly cannot ‘grow’ a cervix.

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No? Really? Well duh! 🤪

MistyGreenAndBlue · 30/04/2024 09:50

Superlambaanana · 29/04/2024 23:26

🤮

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You know I'm being sarcastic, right?

ladybirdsanchez · 30/04/2024 09:50

A friend who believes all this shit explained it to me that the word 'women' is an umbrella term that encompasses cis women and transwomen.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 30/04/2024 09:51

Scarletttulips · 29/04/2024 23:00

Fed up with the air time these things are taking up.

The less we question the sooner they stop being the centre of attention and pipe down.

The problem with your stance is that the die hard ideologists who are pushing this stuff want us all to ignore it and stay quiet. Meanwhile they are busy changing the laws and public policy. So they would prefer if we ignore it and pretend it doesn't matter, so they don't have to deal with any scrutiny.

If you think ignoring this stuff will make it go away you are wrong.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 30/04/2024 09:55

One of the smart things they did early on in this movement was co-opt the language. A 'transwoman' is actually a man - so he's not a woman of any sort (except in his own head maybe), but using the word woman means that many people are still confused and assume it's a trans identifying woman.

Helen Joyce mentioned recently that one of the most common questions she still gets is 'tell me again are transwomen the women who think they are men, or men who think they are women?'.

All of this linguistic capture is designed to confuse most people who aren't looking clearly at this issue - and to be fair, most of us are busy and don't have the time/ inclination to do so. And the people who say it but don't really mean it (because they know exactly what a biological woman is) and think they are being kind are just feeding into this nonsense. It's a mess.

SaltPorridge · 30/04/2024 10:36

It's a very strange phenomenon. Language is agreed by a community. The meanings of words change, or new words are used from time to time.
Throughout the whole of history there have been sets of words signifying "women" and "girls" defined by sex.
I am trying to think of an example where a change to the meaning of a word or set of words was changed, and that change imposed under threat.
Nationalities and ethnic groups spring to mind, but those are socially defined to begin with.

ApplesinmyPocket · 30/04/2024 11:03

"One of the smart things they did early on in this movement was co-opt the language. "

Yes indeed. First 'transwomen' to get 'woman' in there. A little later they said actually it had to be 'trans woman' (with a space) so that people like our dear friend here could come along and claim that insulting racist bullshit about 'trans' women being just another subset of women. They think we won't notice how that worked 😉

WitchyWitcherson · 30/04/2024 16:07

CelesteCunningham · 30/04/2024 07:16

Cis women are women.
Trans women are women.

And thought-terminating clichés are thought-terminating clichés.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 30/04/2024 16:14

0sm0nthus · 29/04/2024 23:41

Could it be something to do with quantum physics? Maybe the uncertainty principle thing?

If that’s a serious question, the answer is “no”. Quantum effects only manifest at extremely small scales.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 30/04/2024 16:25

ButterflyHatched · 30/04/2024 01:30

Congratulations on beating the final boss of satire.

Cis and Trans are useful ways of communicating details about the many different groups of people who are all women, just like 'tall' and 'short' and 'black' and 'white', but you already know that.

Despite all the self-help books on such techniques, assertions rarely, if ever, manifest realities for others.

Original poster

Superlambaanana · 30/04/2024 18:51

@MistyGreenAndBlue yes! Should have said 🤣🤮

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AlisonDonut · 30/04/2024 19:00

ButterflyHatched · 30/04/2024 01:30

Congratulations on beating the final boss of satire.

Cis and Trans are useful ways of communicating details about the many different groups of people who are all women, just like 'tall' and 'short' and 'black' and 'white', but you already know that.

'Trans women' are VERY TALL. It is an extremely good point, thank you!

So tall, they tend to stand out quite alot. So they are uniquely noticeable when stood with your actual old fashioned women.

For example, can anyone pick out which of the college girls in this picture is in fact a 'trans woman' in his 50s?

If transwomen are women, and women are cis women, are transwomen cis women?

Cailleach1 · 30/04/2024 19:05

CelesteCunningham · 30/04/2024 07:16

Cis women are women.
Trans women are women.

So, women are women. And, men are women too.

Do we have to pretend as if that lie is true? Are wishes now really fishes?

TiptoeThroughTheToadstools · 30/04/2024 19:07

I just had a post removed on similar thread, apparently I can't state biological fact 🤷🏻‍♀️

FrippEnos · 30/04/2024 19:15

Superlambaanana · 29/04/2024 23:31

Or maybe biological women then become the transwomen!

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This is correct.

Cis woman = your gender identity
By the definition of trans.
A person whose gender identity does not match their sex at birth

Any body that is gender critical must = trans.

LOL

If its not clear I agree with you that it is stupid.