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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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8
lifeinthelastlane · 28/04/2024 14:01

Sd1960 · 28/04/2024 13:09

He’s just a busker who got lucky. Without the politics, he would have been strumming the Streets of London outside Woolworths

Be careful not to say which Woolworths though, you angry woman.

teawamutu · 28/04/2024 14:07

molotovcupcakes · 28/04/2024 14:00

He is very loyal to his tribe but seems to suggetst that even if 'The Left' are wrong on an issue that J.K.Rowling and Julie Bindel should have looked away, to support the team.
What's the point of democratic debate if you can't question issues that your side are getting wrong, like puberty blockers, women's rights and women's sports- we have the right to object even if some right wing people agree with you.

He's cut ties with Labour and joined the more extreme Left, the most 'fasionable' causes, the more metropolitan elite Left wing student causes that move away from supporting the working classes, it is not a surprise.

A phrase I came across the other day that I like very much: I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.

I think BB disagrees.

Boiledbeetle · 28/04/2024 14:13

I'll be honest I was never a fan of Billy Bragg at the start of his career. Nothing he's done over the last few years has made me consider revisiting that position!

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 14:39

RebelliousCow · 28/04/2024 13:18

At that point theose who hold such, and certain, positions on the basis that they are 'good, kind' people will suggest that all they really ever cared about was protecting marginalised and vulnerable 'trans/people'.

At this point will come the opportunity to unpack what is meant by a 'trans person'. Becaue these people have also never questioned the basics, or reflected on exactly what having a 'trans identity' means or implies.

By uncovering and revealing the conceptual nature of 'gender identity' it can be shown that there is no such thing as a 'trans child' - simply children, and others, who are struggling with various personal issues, feelings, discomfort, dysphoria who are framing their desires, or discomforts, through the lens of gender identity theory.

Yep. Once the Guardian reader types (I class myself in this demographic) see more reverse ferreting and hear more about the irreversible harm that has happened to children, conversations will become easier to have.

The next logical step is that we get to more of a balance of rights, where those who believe that they have a gender identity can exist alongside those who don't, without anyone having that belief forced upon them. This (very long!) essay explores the balance of belief and discrimination really well:
https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/321-the-transgender-rights-issue

It glosses over autogynophilia, perhaps because the author is a man (and doesn't experience the disgust of being pulled in to someone's fantasy, without consent, that women would feel) and perhaps because the essay is long enough anyway. Either way, it's an example of a good and safe place for Be Kinders to start conversations about why it's OK to say no to men identifying their way in to women's spaces and sports etc. When I've had IRL conversations to challenge the impact on gender identity belief, the difference between belief and discrimination has been a key door opener for me.

The Transgender-Rights Issue - The Philosophers' Magazine

The website of The Philosophers' Magazine.

https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/321-the-transgender-rights-issue

Mumoftwo1312 · 28/04/2024 14:49

HelloMyNameIsElderSmurf · 28/04/2024 13:25

Billy's on the facebook thanking the writer for a lovely write-up, by the way...

Haha I love it, do you think he doesn't realise how he's been painted?

Or maybe he does, but is just being polite.

Either way, so delightful. This is the content I read FWR for

nauticant · 28/04/2024 15:00

Billy is very pleased with the piece:

https://twitter.com/billybragg/status/1784549008620351673

DisappearingGirl · 28/04/2024 15:01

Reading this reminds me I still have a soft spot for Billy [hides in corner]

He's come across like an absolute idiot on X on the gender issue. But I still struggle to believe he's actually a horrible person or that he genuinely hates women.

I think probably a previous poster sums it up:
he's not very bright and he's extremely obstinate and opinionated

I like to think if Billy and JKR met over a pint or a brew they could have a good chat about the gender issue, agree to disagree, and go away not actually hating each other. Maybe that's wishful thinking. But the internet brings out the worst in all of us I think.

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:03

Mumoftwo1312 · 28/04/2024 13:10

there are many more men (and women) who are followers of the alt-right fundamentalists who are using the narrative of protecting children, or of concern for women's rights to mask their bigotry.

No one is specifically disagreeing with this.

We are disagreeing with the conclusion that the "narrative of protecting children", as you call it, is therefore inherently wrong.

I personally think protecting children is very important. Crucial, even.

And I don't disagree with safeguarding children or single-sex spaces, nor do I think it weakens the case for either. I said so.

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:07

teawamutu · 28/04/2024 14:07

A phrase I came across the other day that I like very much: I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.

I think BB disagrees.

I think you'll find it's Labour that moved away from supporting the working-class.

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 15:08

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:03

And I don't disagree with safeguarding children or single-sex spaces, nor do I think it weakens the case for either. I said so.

Building a picture where child safeguarding is framed as a concern that is related to the views of right wing and religious people (many of whom believe that women should perform strict roles in society based on sexist stereotypes) does not weaken the case for child safeguarding?

teawamutu · 28/04/2024 15:08

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:07

I think you'll find it's Labour that moved away from supporting the working-class.

Huh? Have you quoted the right post?

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 15:08

Building a picture where child safeguarding is framed as a concern that is related to the views of right wing and religious people (many of whom believe that women should perform strict roles in society based on sexist stereotypes) does not weaken the case for child safeguarding?

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:13

teawamutu · 28/04/2024 15:08

Huh? Have you quoted the right post?

No, I don't think I have.

DameMaud · 28/04/2024 15:16

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 14:39

Yep. Once the Guardian reader types (I class myself in this demographic) see more reverse ferreting and hear more about the irreversible harm that has happened to children, conversations will become easier to have.

The next logical step is that we get to more of a balance of rights, where those who believe that they have a gender identity can exist alongside those who don't, without anyone having that belief forced upon them. This (very long!) essay explores the balance of belief and discrimination really well:
https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/321-the-transgender-rights-issue

It glosses over autogynophilia, perhaps because the author is a man (and doesn't experience the disgust of being pulled in to someone's fantasy, without consent, that women would feel) and perhaps because the essay is long enough anyway. Either way, it's an example of a good and safe place for Be Kinders to start conversations about why it's OK to say no to men identifying their way in to women's spaces and sports etc. When I've had IRL conversations to challenge the impact on gender identity belief, the difference between belief and discrimination has been a key door opener for me.

Edited

Thanks for the essay. Very thorough. Was thinking it would be a good one to send to people who aren't as embroiled and deep into all of this, but showing interest and/or confusion.
My only reservation is that the latter part that goes into the ultra/light/twitter debates might lose people outside of this a bit!
The key, opening section about distinguishing between equality and belief claims is excellent. As well as the way it breaks down all of the key issues around sport/women's spaces/gender affirmative approach with children/affect on LGB etc.
Someone put alot of careful work into this

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:16

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:13

No, I don't think I have.

He's cut ties with Labour and joined the more extreme Left, the most 'fasionable' causes, the more metropolitan elite Left wing student causes that move away from supporting the working classes, it is not a surprise.

It was this nonsense I was referring to.

InvisibleBuffy · 28/04/2024 15:20

The problem for Billy is that he has finally realised that there is a problem but he has far too much pride to acknowledge, even to himself, that he's been a part of it.
So he's desperately trying to reverse ferret out of the corner he's backed himself into, chasing his little ferret tail round and round in increasing confusion.

Also, big lol at the usual 'far-right funding' claims.
At the moment, I think anyone still making this kind of claim is not only hard of thinking but also incredibly lazy.
Anyone looking at the actual women involved in women's rights e.g. Bindel and Rowling as well as the trade unionists, academics, leaders of refuges, feminist groups, left wing politicians etc and its clear that it's absolute nonsense.

BonfireLady · 28/04/2024 15:21

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

I would never look for nor welcome the support of right wing fundamentalists. I've not seen anything to suggest such support is welcomed by UK organisations that are concerned about child safeguarding (or women's rights) in relation to gender identity.

I've posted all sorts of things about religion on MN and X, e.g. using the example that I would push back heavily if Christians insisted that children's biology books stated that conception was possible without sperm (thankfully, I'm not forced in to a position where I'm having a discussion about Jesus' paternity because Christians aren't demanding that everyone adopts their beliefs as facts) and I've not had "hostility". My understanding of the criticisms of your posts is that it's the guilt by association that is being called out.

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 28/04/2024 15:30

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

Oh come on. We’re hostile because we’re tired of lazy accusations of far right funding when almost everything we do is crowdfunded from small donations by individual women and every time we do a crowd funder you can see that this is where the money is coming from.

upinclouds · 28/04/2024 15:44

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/04/2024 08:53

Bottom line is, he's not very bright and he's extremely obstinate and opinionated. The journalist is absolutely right when he says that X/Twitter is not a good place for a nuanced, complex debate. Won't stop Bragg, though.

Nailed it. He clearly just doesn't understand what he's arguing for or against, and continues to double down on it.

InvisibleBuffy · 28/04/2024 15:53

OldManLogan · 28/04/2024 15:12

That's a bit of stretch. Are you saying you welcome the money and support of rightwing fundamentalists and don't think it's in any way?

The hostility my post received does feel very similar to the responses I'd expect if I'd posted something vaguely critical of a religion though.

I could ask the same of you about the people sitting on your side of the table.
Do you welcome and support WPATH in adding a chapter on eunuchs in their latest best practice document at the same time as removing any minimum age restrictions?
Do you welcome and support the parents of Kai Shappelly 'hard spanking' and forcing their two year old child to pray for hours for liking 'girl' toys?
What about welcoming and supporting the people who drew dicks on the pavement outside Filia last year before the vigil for murdered women took place?
What about supporting and welcoming Juno Dawson saying that gay men are only gay as a consolation prize because they can't be women?
What about the staff at the Tavistock laughing about there going to be no gay children left? Do you welcome and support that?
Your side of the table is rife with deep homophobia and violence against women.
And our side, all you have is a hell of of a stretch to somehow to connect women in the UK to a donation made in the US eight years ago.
I suggest you take much harder look at your own side of the table before you start mudslinging at ours. Trans activism is far more 'far right' in its treatment of women and gay people than feminists ever were.

LizzieSiddal · 28/04/2024 16:06

This response from JK is superb, as usual.

I’d like to think #pmcw means Predominantly Middle Class Wankers.

x.com/jk_rowling/status/1784586797525184794

illinivich · 28/04/2024 16:07

there are many more men (and women) who are followers of the alt-right fundamentalists who are using the narrative of protecting children, or of concern for women's rights to mask their bigotry.

Right wing people love their children and are concerned for womens rights, too.

The idea that anyone would only campaign to stop their children being medicalised, or their daughters in changing rooms with men, because of hidden bigotry and not the saftey of their children is conspiracy theory level bonkers.

Oblomov24 · 28/04/2024 16:27

Great response from her as usual.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2024 17:03

LizzieSiddal · 28/04/2024 16:06

This response from JK is superb, as usual.

I’d like to think #pmcw means Predominantly Middle Class Wankers.

x.com/jk_rowling/status/1784586797525184794

C+P of JKR response for the no-twatters out there:
This comment by billybragg perfectly sums up what left wing women have taken from left wing men over the last few years. The problem isn’t whether Julie Bindel and I are correct on the issues, but that certain right-wingers agree with us.

If you’ve spent any time at all on the left of politics, you’re familiar with the progressive male class warrior, usually middle-class himself, whose interest in women’s issues begins and ends with sex work, stripping and abortions. He might claim to be a feminist ally and mutter vaguely about ‘equality’ if the need arises, but when a genuine assault on women’s rights erupted under his nose, he cut left wing women adrift without a second thought. He expected us to be so blindly tribal that we’d surrender single sex spaces, jettison the very language we use to describe ourselves, give up fair sport, agree rapists should be locked up in women’s prisons and that lesbians are bigots for not wanting to sleep with the penis-ed, because (horrors!) some people on the right thought these things were wrong, too.

Over the last few years, a huge number of PMCWs have become men’s rights activists in all but name, and it’s been profoundly depressing, if not entirely unexpected, to see how enjoyable they’ve found it. Even while attacking women for finding themselves on the same side as right-wingers, the PMCWs stampeded to join the team that was threatening women with rape and violence, harassing women’s conferences, attempting to block access to gender critical events and physically assaulting female demonstrators. PMCWs are everywhere online, lecturing women reliant on state-run services for not welcoming the male-bodied into communal changing rooms and rape crisis shelters, presuming to police women’s language and tone, turning a blind eye to all statistics on male sexual violence that might contradict the ‘you’re all scaremongering bigots’ narrative and demonstrating that their deepest empathy will always be reserved for those who were born with a penis.

The truth is that the left has fucked up monumentally on gender identity ideology and until it owns the mistake, it will continue to hand the right valid talking points. As more and more PMCWs realise this, they’ll take shameless refuge in accusations that we, the women criticising the injustice and insanity of gender identity ideology, were enabling the far-right. The fact is that they’ve done exactly that, by refusing to accept that there was anything wrong with a movement that was causing serious harm to troubled young people, trampling all over women’s rights and seeking to remove single-sex services for the most vulnerable.

The sense of betrayal women on the left feel towards men like Bragg will take a long time to disappear, if it ever does. I think we all take some grim satisfaction, though, in the fact that evidence of the PMCWs’ misogyny and complicity is a matter of public record, because the panicky back-pedalling and whitewashing that’s just begun is quite something to behold.

Pesky GenZ AT peskygenz
Left-wing male “feminists” will never be in any position to lecture us. Especially when their support of women primarily extends to causes that benefit men.

J.K. Rowling AT jk_rowling
Yep. When a man's 'feminism' is largely centred on ensuring that women can keep selling sex and taking off their clothes for money, it's not a massive surprise he has a problem with women who refuse to hand over whatever men want.

Jane, Empress of the Known Universe AT blablafishcakes
That is EXACTLY billybragg's brand of "feminism".
[see photo]

J.K. Rowling AT jk_rowling
Called it.

Billy Bragg getting challenged in the Observer
RedToothBrush · 28/04/2024 17:06

My point, that I've been banging on about for years:

The right wing are exploiting an area the left wing have traditionally occupied but have recently neglected for their own agenda. If the left wing hadn't been caught napping / had a total deleriction of duty to women then they wouldn't have the right wing squatting on 'their patch' to begin with.

Its not the left wing feminist women who have moved. They've stayed in exactly the same position.

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