Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“Feminism has left middle-aged women like me single, childless and depressed”

198 replies

MongoFrogman · 26/04/2024 13:05

Article by Petronella Wyatt, thoughts?:

https://archive.ph/IBlas

OP posts:
FlakyPoet · 01/05/2024 10:09

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 09:59

You seem to be suggesting two more ways that men can have their cake and eat it in your example.

I'm not. I'm saying that - for example - women can't work full time when their partner is the SAHP, then expect to be deemed the resident parent in the event of a separation. That's not men having their cake and eating it, it's a woman finding that being a mother doesn't equal automatically receiving custody/maintenance. Often the two go together because often it's the woman that's stayed at home/earned less, but we're now seeing it work in reverse because a woman can be the NRP/high earner.

I have known women who've been horrified to find that they are have not automatically been awarded resident parent status. They assumed that having birthed the child conferred special rights.

I don't think that's "men having their cake and eating it", it's the fair application of the law regardless of sex.

It was confusing, you closing off with “Feminist to my core as I am, I also recognise that women cannot have their cake and eat it any more than men can.”

Nobody was arguing that women can have their cake and eat it as far as I could see.

I had argued that feminist gains created an unfortunate side effect of many men feeling entitled to hold on to patriarchal privileges, whilst feasting on the female patriarchal compensations for bearing the reproductive burden, which feminists jettisoned as symbols of inferiority and dependence. Many men have their cake and eat in that way.

LandArt · 01/05/2024 10:16

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 09:59

You seem to be suggesting two more ways that men can have their cake and eat it in your example.

I'm not. I'm saying that - for example - women can't work full time when their partner is the SAHP, then expect to be deemed the resident parent in the event of a separation. That's not men having their cake and eating it, it's a woman finding that being a mother doesn't equal automatically receiving custody/maintenance. Often the two go together because often it's the woman that's stayed at home/earned less, but we're now seeing it work in reverse because a woman can be the NRP/high earner.

I have known women who've been horrified to find that they are have not automatically been awarded resident parent status. They assumed that having birthed the child conferred special rights.

I don't think that's "men having their cake and eating it", it's the fair application of the law regardless of sex.

But given that men constitute less than 7% of all UK SAHPs (2022 figures), it’s not some kind of ‘gotcha’ as regards a ‘negative’ side-effect of feminism.

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 10:20

LandArt · 01/05/2024 10:16

But given that men constitute less than 7% of all UK SAHPs (2022 figures), it’s not some kind of ‘gotcha’ as regards a ‘negative’ side-effect of feminism.

I'm not suggesting it is a "gotcha", I'm making the point that it can work in reverse. I'm not even suggesting it's a negative side-effect of feminism, it's just the reality of equality.

Soigneur · 01/05/2024 10:39

Hyper-privileged member of the establishment has a whine in a newspaper read by hyper-privileged members of the establishment about a radical social movement which threatens the status quo.

FlakyPoet · 01/05/2024 10:50

A touch tribalist in your reasoning methinks.

Grammarnut · 01/05/2024 14:09

SidewaysOtter · 01/05/2024 09:59

You seem to be suggesting two more ways that men can have their cake and eat it in your example.

I'm not. I'm saying that - for example - women can't work full time when their partner is the SAHP, then expect to be deemed the resident parent in the event of a separation. That's not men having their cake and eating it, it's a woman finding that being a mother doesn't equal automatically receiving custody/maintenance. Often the two go together because often it's the woman that's stayed at home/earned less, but we're now seeing it work in reverse because a woman can be the NRP/high earner.

I have known women who've been horrified to find that they are have not automatically been awarded resident parent status. They assumed that having birthed the child conferred special rights.

I don't think that's "men having their cake and eating it", it's the fair application of the law regardless of sex.

I rather think that is men having their cake and eat it too. That you carried a child for 9 months and gave birth to it at risk to your health and life gives you a much greater investment in the child. You are bonded together, flesh of my flesh, blood of my blood. Men do not have that bond, so custody should go to the mother (unless she is unfit, of course).

ZeldaFighter · 01/05/2024 14:25

I'm sad for her but I sat in the office yesterday, a woman in her 50s with 3 kids, thinking that if I hadn't taken years out of my career to be with my kids, I'd be 2 grades above these clowns and they wouldn't be my bosses.

I don't think I have all the answers but more flexible workplaces and more emphasis on childcare and homebuilding for men might help.

I don't think it's feminism fault if the message was twisted from "let women work and have financial independence " to "women can work but must do all the childcare and housework too".

Codlingmoths · 01/05/2024 15:19

ZeldaFighter · 01/05/2024 14:25

I'm sad for her but I sat in the office yesterday, a woman in her 50s with 3 kids, thinking that if I hadn't taken years out of my career to be with my kids, I'd be 2 grades above these clowns and they wouldn't be my bosses.

I don't think I have all the answers but more flexible workplaces and more emphasis on childcare and homebuilding for men might help.

I don't think it's feminism fault if the message was twisted from "let women work and have financial independence " to "women can work but must do all the childcare and housework too".

It is definitely not feminism that said sure you can work but nobody is going to wash those dishes for you. That’s 100% the patriarchy, grudgingly letting women have jobs but absolutely not planning to take up housework just because you both work.

LadyEloise1 · 01/05/2024 20:24

Yes the "Let women work and have financial independence" became the "Let women work and have financial independence and do the majority of childcare and housework too", sadly.

Sometimes I think my mother had a nicer life when we were children than when I had my children- she wasn't financially independent but had lots of time to do the things she loved while being a great Mum.

Grammarnut · 01/05/2024 21:28

ZeldaFighter · 01/05/2024 14:25

I'm sad for her but I sat in the office yesterday, a woman in her 50s with 3 kids, thinking that if I hadn't taken years out of my career to be with my kids, I'd be 2 grades above these clowns and they wouldn't be my bosses.

I don't think I have all the answers but more flexible workplaces and more emphasis on childcare and homebuilding for men might help.

I don't think it's feminism fault if the message was twisted from "let women work and have financial independence " to "women can work but must do all the childcare and housework too".

What would help is not expecting women to be like men and follow male career paths. In such a world childbearing and rearing would be partof the GDP, and it would be possible for a woman to train for a job, have children and make a home, then go back to the job with her experience as a mother etc counted for her seniority and pay. That would work.

TedMullins · 01/05/2024 23:30

Grammarnut · 01/05/2024 21:28

What would help is not expecting women to be like men and follow male career paths. In such a world childbearing and rearing would be partof the GDP, and it would be possible for a woman to train for a job, have children and make a home, then go back to the job with her experience as a mother etc counted for her seniority and pay. That would work.

What on earth is a “male career path”? Men and women should be able to pursue whatever career path they like, whether that’s a part time refuse collector or an astronaut. What about women who don’t want to take time out to “make a home” but would rather share parental leave? Women who are the breadwinners? Lesbian couples where there isn’t a man to factor in? A world in which certain paths lock women out because they’re only for men isn’t one I’d want to live in.

TedMullins · 01/05/2024 23:34

LadyEloise1 · 01/05/2024 20:24

Yes the "Let women work and have financial independence" became the "Let women work and have financial independence and do the majority of childcare and housework too", sadly.

Sometimes I think my mother had a nicer life when we were children than when I had my children- she wasn't financially independent but had lots of time to do the things she loved while being a great Mum.

Women don’t have to do this though. Nobody forces us to have kids with useless men who won’t do childcare and housework (ok, some men might seen capable before children then change but in that case nobody forces us to stay in the relationship). Having financial independence - apparently a “male” thing according to some on here - gives women choices like leaving lazy men who don’t do any chores or parenting. I don’t have kids but I have a partner who probably does more than me domestically. I dumped my last boyfriend for leaving his half-drunk coffee cups everywhere and putting a muddy footprint on a new rug. Men can expect women to do all the domestic drudgery all they like, doesn’t mean we have to capitulate to it.

Grammarnut · 01/05/2024 23:50

TedMullins · 01/05/2024 23:30

What on earth is a “male career path”? Men and women should be able to pursue whatever career path they like, whether that’s a part time refuse collector or an astronaut. What about women who don’t want to take time out to “make a home” but would rather share parental leave? Women who are the breadwinners? Lesbian couples where there isn’t a man to factor in? A world in which certain paths lock women out because they’re only for men isn’t one I’d want to live in.

Our world is set-up for a default male biology. Women do not fit that pattern and a feminist ideal is to make changes so that 'man' and 'male' are not the default. This does not just apply to how we shape our career paths and work places, it applies to biology as well, so that male bodies, and how they work are the default for medical intervention, which causes problems for women, who do not exhibit the same symptoms for some diseases (e.g. heart diseas and strokes) and whose bodies do not react in the same way to medicines because their chemistry is different. In the work place, everything is geared to how men's bodies work, menstruation, pregnancy, breast feeding and all the messy reality of being a woman, like needing to pee much more often, must fit to a male pattern. This is what I mean by 'male career path': train, qualify, work, get promotion, retire. A woman's path is more like: train, marry/find a partner, have children, rear them either full-time or part-time and run a household and its budget, lose promotion at work as on maternity leave, does not return etc, return to work at lower leverl than she began, progress less well, retire (now at same age as men), have a smaller pension. Some women will choose to work and not have children, or have full-time childcare (which eats up most of their income), some will do as you suggest, and share parental leave. Lesbian couples have the same problems as a heterosexual couple - someone has to bear and rear the children, do the cooking etc (sexual orientation makes no difference to this pattern, and it will apply to gay couples as well, where one must put their career on hold to look after the children, and probably give up some promotion - the only difference is that a gay couple will not have the biological imperatives of women).
You say: 'A world in which certain paths lock women out because they’re only for men isn’t one I’d want to live in' - that world is the one you live in, where women are locked out of careers, jobs, work in general because of their biology and because they bear the burden of reproduction. I want to stop locking women out, and to do that women need to be able to choose to stay at home if that suits them and their family without it wrecking their careers and pensions.

Grammarnut · 02/05/2024 01:01

TedMullins · 01/05/2024 23:34

Women don’t have to do this though. Nobody forces us to have kids with useless men who won’t do childcare and housework (ok, some men might seen capable before children then change but in that case nobody forces us to stay in the relationship). Having financial independence - apparently a “male” thing according to some on here - gives women choices like leaving lazy men who don’t do any chores or parenting. I don’t have kids but I have a partner who probably does more than me domestically. I dumped my last boyfriend for leaving his half-drunk coffee cups everywhere and putting a muddy footprint on a new rug. Men can expect women to do all the domestic drudgery all they like, doesn’t mean we have to capitulate to it.

I doubt I would break off a relationship over dirty coffee cups or mud on a rug. These things are immaterial. Friendship and love are what are needed in a relationship, not lists and demarcations. My late DH could not use a hoover, it was too heavy for him to move because of a hernia injury caused by being attacked by a cow. He didn't wash up very often - we had a dishwasher anyway - but he cooked wonderful soups and made adventurous desserts. He was my best friend and I wish he was leaving a half-empty cup on the floor right now and stomping mud from the garden onto the carpet.

ZeldaFighter · 10/05/2024 10:48

Grammarnut · 02/05/2024 01:01

I doubt I would break off a relationship over dirty coffee cups or mud on a rug. These things are immaterial. Friendship and love are what are needed in a relationship, not lists and demarcations. My late DH could not use a hoover, it was too heavy for him to move because of a hernia injury caused by being attacked by a cow. He didn't wash up very often - we had a dishwasher anyway - but he cooked wonderful soups and made adventurous desserts. He was my best friend and I wish he was leaving a half-empty cup on the floor right now and stomping mud from the garden onto the carpet.

I'm sorry @Grammarnut , I hope you're ok xxx

ZeldaFighter · 10/05/2024 10:53

Grammarnut · 01/05/2024 23:50

Our world is set-up for a default male biology. Women do not fit that pattern and a feminist ideal is to make changes so that 'man' and 'male' are not the default. This does not just apply to how we shape our career paths and work places, it applies to biology as well, so that male bodies, and how they work are the default for medical intervention, which causes problems for women, who do not exhibit the same symptoms for some diseases (e.g. heart diseas and strokes) and whose bodies do not react in the same way to medicines because their chemistry is different. In the work place, everything is geared to how men's bodies work, menstruation, pregnancy, breast feeding and all the messy reality of being a woman, like needing to pee much more often, must fit to a male pattern. This is what I mean by 'male career path': train, qualify, work, get promotion, retire. A woman's path is more like: train, marry/find a partner, have children, rear them either full-time or part-time and run a household and its budget, lose promotion at work as on maternity leave, does not return etc, return to work at lower leverl than she began, progress less well, retire (now at same age as men), have a smaller pension. Some women will choose to work and not have children, or have full-time childcare (which eats up most of their income), some will do as you suggest, and share parental leave. Lesbian couples have the same problems as a heterosexual couple - someone has to bear and rear the children, do the cooking etc (sexual orientation makes no difference to this pattern, and it will apply to gay couples as well, where one must put their career on hold to look after the children, and probably give up some promotion - the only difference is that a gay couple will not have the biological imperatives of women).
You say: 'A world in which certain paths lock women out because they’re only for men isn’t one I’d want to live in' - that world is the one you live in, where women are locked out of careers, jobs, work in general because of their biology and because they bear the burden of reproduction. I want to stop locking women out, and to do that women need to be able to choose to stay at home if that suits them and their family without it wrecking their careers and pensions.

And yes - this! I had to turn down a promotion at work because I was pregnant. The bonus would have made me out-earn my boyfriend for the first time ever despite our identical academic careers. But it wasn't to be.

Having 3 kids has not hindered his career at all - in fact, having someone at home (failing to) take care of everything probably helped a lot! The fatherhood bump and motherhood penalty are well known and predictably, after choosing to not work outside the home for several years, my career is wrecked.

FannyCann · 20/05/2024 06:47

Just popping in to say she has recycled this to the DM

PETRONELLA WYATT: Feminism has failed me and my generation

mol.im/a/13435575

It's one of those paid for articles so necessary to put the link into the archive site to find a free version but I couldn't be bothered really.

DunkinBensDonuts · 20/05/2024 07:13

Saw a very sad story on Twitter from
a recently bereaved child about their father. The father was somewhat well known in his field (I want to say it was microeconomics), enough to have passing mention in textbooks and the like.

Well on the father’s deathbed, he said (to his child!) his one regret in life was taking a month to go on a family holiday to a cabin on a lake (fairly typical US holiday) because a rival had pushed out a publication on some topic or another first that he was working on and got the credit.

This holiday had apparently been a favourite childhood memory for this child …. and the father only feels regret and some bitterness.

…. why are men like this?

Do we really want to be like that? I think about this story from time to time tbh I just don’t think it’s worth it anymore.

FannyCann · 20/05/2024 08:09

That's really sad Dunkin

As a newly qualified nurse I remember spending several long nights caring for a woman in ITU who died of acute liver failure, talking to her husband through the night. They had just retired and now wouldn't have the retirement they had looked forward to. He deeply regretted spending too much time at work and not enough with his wife and family.

In fact, because of him and our talks I haven't paid enough attention to the career side of life cheerfully saying "no one ever regrets spending too much time at the office when they are on their deathbed". Sadly as a result I'm the grasshopper who didn't prepare for winter and facing a somewhat impoverished old age! And now here it is - a man who regrets not spending more time at the office!

What a shame he said that to his child.

MarieDeGournay · 20/05/2024 13:45

Lilacdew · 26/04/2024 13:55

How the hell did she manage to have a long affair with Boris and not get pregnant? I thought he had a child in every postcode.

Gosh that made me laugh! I wonder did he have a copy of the London A-Z instead of a Little Black Book?😂

girlpancake · 20/05/2024 15:13

Mariannas · 26/04/2024 13:13

I can’t relate to the article at all. I’m a lifelong radical feminist and I’m middle aged, married and have 3 children.

She is misrepresenting what feminism is.

Edited

Same here. Married, two kids. Decent job. Not depressed.

newnamethanks · 26/05/2024 22:49

Not get pregnant? She famously aborted his child. She has led a life of remarkable privilege compared to the vast majority of women and made choices we all have to make. If fault has to be attributed for her choices then that fault does not lie with feminism but a lot closer to home.

TeamPolin · 28/05/2024 09:14

I think she's talking bollocks tbh. I'm a feminist and have never wanted to act like a man. I've simply never wanted to be denied opportunities based on the fact that I have a fanny. Feminism is about being entitled to make your own life choices, rather than have them imposed upon you, surely?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page