Page 3 | “Feminism has left middle-aged women like me single, childless and depressed”

MongoFrogman · 2024-04-26T12:05:57+00:00

Article by Petronella Wyatt, thoughts?: [[https://archive.ph/IBlas https://archive.ph/IBlas]]

BeaRF75 · 26/04/2024 15:30

Awful article, that regresses to an era when all women were expected to marry and have children, otherwise they would be "unfulfilled". She assumes that her unhappiness is shared by all other women of her age and situation. Bullshit! There are very many middle-aged women who are perfectly happy to be single and/or childfree. I'm sorry that Petronella has depression, but this is her personal issue and not shared by a whole generation. She should be glad that women have choices, and she made hers - as we all did.

Bumblebeeinatree · 26/04/2024 15:33

Why's it Maggie's fault that she didn't marry and have children? Maggie managed to have a husband and children as well as a career in politics and being PM.

StarsHideYourFir3s · 26/04/2024 15:33

"Where, for instance, does it leave women like me, when we have reached the age of 54, as I have, and find ourselves both single and childless? Hugging the collected works of Proust, or engaging in furtive sojourns to the pub that bring remembrances of things pissed?" I'm two decades younger, and if I continue to be single and childless, at 54 I won't be either cradling old books or moping in a pub. 54 is young, you can learn to run marathons or lift weights or go on solo holidays to feed baby elephants or literally anything else. She's right that care of the elderly is too reliant on family, however.

littleburn · 26/04/2024 15:37

AirGappedServerScrapings · 26/04/2024 13:19

I think having a long affair with a married Boris Johnson is more to blame for leaving her "single, childless and depressed."

100%

RhubarbAndGingerCheesecake · 26/04/2024 15:39

I noticed birth gap guy and his many right wing male interviews saying similar that women and men fall into childness by leaving it all to late and often seeming to blame feminist messaging for this and occasional society problems.

Yet when I look at ONS date for UK the childless % of women remains fairly constant and family size - which they claim is unaffected - had reduced in size.

It couldn't be there weren't that bothered and prioritized other things and made choices - women get enough messaging about declining fertility and aging.

I got messaging aimed at me to prioritize a career - not to consider kids till mid 30s - I ignored it as well as the common advice not to discuss kids and life plans early on in relationship - did that and found a partner on same page as me.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2024 15:41

AirGappedServerScrapings · 26/04/2024 13:19

I think having a long affair with a married Boris Johnson is more to blame for leaving her "single, childless and depressed."

Well, quite.

If your goal is to marry and have children, maybe don't waste four years of your early 30s with a man who is married to someone else and doesn't want to marry or have children with you.

Brefugee · 26/04/2024 15:46

FlakyPoet · 26/04/2024 14:49

I am going to go against the grain here. I think that feminism has made young women feel like motherhood is optional, in the way young women never felt before, and that led to a false sense of having all the time in the world to make their minds up about whether they want children or not, and given men this sense that they are under no pressure to get serious about starting a family or being motivated to be a good provider.

The result is that there are many women who don’t tell men to sod off if they are not serious about starting a family. They waste their fertile years waiting for him to declare that he is ready, leave him when that day never arrives, then find themselves in a desperate spot in their late 30s and 40s and many ending up without children and regretting their situation bitterly.

The feeling of having all the time in the world before thinking about having a family, is thinking/feeling like a man. It’s an illusion. Women need to get serious about it earlier.

nope. Feminism has given women choices. I wasn't going to but since it's already in the thread: feminism gave her the choice to get the abortion of Boris' baby.

She can stick it in her pipe and smoke it.

Lagoony · 26/04/2024 15:49

Honestly, having children is horrendous for some people, women included. Obviously it has the potential to be wonderful and enriching but it isn't a guarantee. Also having children and/or being married is absolutely no guarantee you wotm face loneliness at some point in your life.
Blaming the issue of loneliness on equality is ridiculous. Most people are more lonely today than they used to be, and this is due to myriad reasons, but largely rampant capitalism and technology/ use of screens.

SageHoney · 26/04/2024 15:50

On personal level, it's often said that you need to be comfortable with yourself, and self-reliant, before entering into a healthy and successful relationship with a life partner. It seems like the author is still working on the first part.

On a societal level, I think her attitude is sometimes referred to as "the tyranny of lowered expectations". It reminds me of a Texan friend's comment on the eve of the US midterms: "Who do I vote for if I'd like to be able to go outside without being shot, AND to be able to access birth control?" It SHOULDN'T be an either-or; it's very reasonable and possible for a political party - or a society - to be able to meet both of these needs. Just as it's reasonable for a woman to be in a happy and mutual fulfilling relationship AND to have equitable rights and opportunities under the law and in practice. But when there's a real possibility that you'll end up with neither, that kind of "choice" becomes normalised. And, of course, that puts the blame on the individual woman (and in the case of politics, very often ALL women) if she makes the "wrong" choice. Which she will, because they are both wrong.

yesmen · 26/04/2024 15:51

anothernamitynamenamechange · 26/04/2024 13:28

But every time there is big social change, or disruption people suffer and stable family structures get shaken. It is true when people immigrate into a very different society. It is also true when there are economic/social upheavals within society (the enlightenment, the industrial revolution etc). Every time women take on (or are made to take on) a lot of the work straddling the border between the old and new or trying to mitigate the impact, trying to keep traditions alive. They are often the ones most visibly affected (because of biology). They are also often the ones who are either directly blamed, or who are used as a sort of focus for disquiet about change. And we are going through a massive social and economic change at the moment. "Disruption" as an ongoing process is now accepted as a business model. That's going to leave lots of men as well as women in the dust - bouncing from undervalued job to undervalued job as each industry gets replaced with another. We don't really have mechanisms to prioritise things that really matter (children, childhood, care, family) that can't or shouldn't be monetised.
Women are 50% of society and as responsible for these changes as men. But its interesting that the only way some people can talk about the downsides of this brave new world is by tying it to feminism. But at least they are talking about it.

With all the worry over the cost of caring for the elderly, the young, the sick it seems to me that we should all look back at the women whose work was “in the home” and who were considered to be a “cost” to society and their husbands, and APOLOGISE.

Cleary they scooped up the million/billion pound expense by getting on with it.

123anotherday · 26/04/2024 15:51

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2024 15:41

Well, quite.

If your goal is to marry and have children, maybe don't waste four years of your early 30s with a man who is married to someone else and doesn't want to marry or have children with you.

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Exactly and neither is feminism disrespecting other women to the extent you have an affair with a married man. She actually had an abortion and a miscarriage during this affair so more fool her for bad choices.

MidnightPatrol · 26/04/2024 15:54

She had an affair with Boris Johnson, an already married man, between the ages of 32 and 38.

Now, this is the age which most ‘career women’ seem to settle down and start their families.

She doesn’t mention this…

ThomasinaLivesHere · 26/04/2024 15:56

FlakyPoet · 26/04/2024 14:49

I am going to go against the grain here. I think that feminism has made young women feel like motherhood is optional, in the way young women never felt before, and that led to a false sense of having all the time in the world to make their minds up about whether they want children or not, and given men this sense that they are under no pressure to get serious about starting a family or being motivated to be a good provider.

The result is that there are many women who don’t tell men to sod off if they are not serious about starting a family. They waste their fertile years waiting for him to declare that he is ready, leave him when that day never arrives, then find themselves in a desperate spot in their late 30s and 40s and many ending up without children and regretting their situation bitterly.

The feeling of having all the time in the world before thinking about having a family, is thinking/feeling like a man. It’s an illusion. Women need to get serious about it earlier.

I think there’s something there - especially the feminism which focuses on being like men.
I think though it’s more complex. Culture and economics greatly influences people on having children as examples.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2024 16:00

FlakyPoet · 26/04/2024 14:49

I am going to go against the grain here. I think that feminism has made young women feel like motherhood is optional, in the way young women never felt before, and that led to a false sense of having all the time in the world to make their minds up about whether they want children or not, and given men this sense that they are under no pressure to get serious about starting a family or being motivated to be a good provider.

The result is that there are many women who don’t tell men to sod off if they are not serious about starting a family. They waste their fertile years waiting for him to declare that he is ready, leave him when that day never arrives, then find themselves in a desperate spot in their late 30s and 40s and many ending up without children and regretting their situation bitterly.

The feeling of having all the time in the world before thinking about having a family, is thinking/feeling like a man. It’s an illusion. Women need to get serious about it earlier.

I'm not quite sure how you're equating waiting around for a man to decide to marry and have kids with you with feminism.

As @Brefugee says, feminism has given us choices. What we do with them is up to us.

It is almost certainly the case that the number of women who would like to be happily married to a man and have his children is greater than the number of men who are willing to be a good husband and father. This means that a number of women are going to end up disappointed, whether they end up married with children but unhappy and unfulfilled, in a relationship with a man who strings them along for years but never commits, or single.

What is clear is that wasting your childbearing years hoping that a particular man is going to commit to you when he shows no signs of being willing to do so, is not a feminist choice.

In Jane Austen's time, if Mr Bingley or even Mr Wickham didn't ask for your hand in marriage within a reasonable timescale, you sucked it up and accepted Mr Collins, because it was better than ending up unmarried, destitute and dependent on the charity of others.

Today, we don't need to marry Mr Collins, there is no reason why being unmarried should leave us destitute, so if you choose to waste your 30s on Mr Bingley or Mr Wickham who is taking his sweet time and never intends to commit to you, that's on you.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 16:03

Dumbo12 · 26/04/2024 13:21

I don't think she understands feminism.

She doesn't, but I know she's written about being sectioned recently, and I think she's trying rather badly to frame her issues in a political explanation when it's all a bit of a muddle.

Then again, what's an older female freelancer to do for money while she recovers, if not sell slightly half baked articles?

WoshPank · 26/04/2024 16:05

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 26/04/2024 15:41

Well, quite.

If your goal is to marry and have children, maybe don't waste four years of your early 30s with a man who is married to someone else and doesn't want to marry or have children with you.

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Yep! She can serve as a salutary tale to other women, but not in the way she thinks. It's not feminism that made her waste years on a married man.

yesmen · 26/04/2024 16:06

TedMullins · 26/04/2024 15:04

motherhood is optional though, in that women can choose whether they want to have children or not. I don’t think it’s a secret that fertility declines with age so if women do want children they need to be upfront about that when they’re dating. I told my current partner on our first date that I don’t want kids - if I did want them, I’d have told him that on the first date too.

I don’t know who these women are that think their fertility goes on forever - feminism has never said that, it’s about equality of opportunity and choices. I don’t think men have any obligation to be a “provider” or want children either. There are many men out there who do want families, and the problem isn’t feminism but people not being able to openly communicate. If you’re meekly sat waiting for your partner to declare he wants children, while you’ve never actually broached the topic or made that clear when you started dating then you only have yourself to blame. Men too should be honest about whether they do or don’t want kids.

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I agree with @TedMullins - communication is key. The courage to express that desire. Feminisim is about choice- not about not having babies!

But I also think the poster you replied to has a point. We have a long youth nowadays. We are for the most part healthy, financially independent, glossy haired high achievers. (Well…you know what I mean!). With so much under our control in terms of ageing it can be a shock to arrive at an age where you are running out of options.

We live in a culture where high value is placed on professional success and earning well. These are great for business but I wonder are they as great for society? Commitment and children are not highly valued.

LiterallyOnFire · 26/04/2024 16:09

How the hell did she manage to have a long affair with Boris and not get pregnant? I thought he had a child in every postcode.

She did get pregnant. The subsequent abortion was widely discussed. It must be one of the most gossiped about abortion on history (and was, I think, the pretext for the endless performative confusion about how many children BJ has).

Which episode might well figure in her current mental state. I am not a fan but I can't be too harsh to her. We've only made mistakes. She seems to have made some.

RhubarbAndGingerCheesecake · 26/04/2024 16:14

We have a long youth nowadays. We are for the most part healthy, financially independent, glossy haired high achievers. (Well…you know what I mean!). With so much under our control in terms of ageing it can be a shock to arrive at an age where you are running out of options.

Given all the messaging aimed at women and their biological clocks and fertility windows - I don't think women are surprised by aging out of fertility - many men on other hand do seem be much more unaware. Even possibility of getting with younger women that could give them more time is harder than many seem to assume.

I don't know what is going on with this woman but spending years of her 30s as a mistress is hardly feminist behavior nor does it screams want to settle down and have kids.

ApocalipstickNow · 26/04/2024 16:18

Well I’m in my 50s, had a child late in life, have a job I love (but is badly paid) and the menopause makes me miserable but, crucially, I’ve never had to shag Boris Johnson 🙌

mathanxiety · 26/04/2024 16:25

AirGappedServerScrapings · 26/04/2024 13:19

I think having a long affair with a married Boris Johnson is more to blame for leaving her "single, childless and depressed."

Haha, yes.

"Fight the real enemy!"

AnnaKristie · 26/04/2024 16:27

FlakyPoet · 26/04/2024 14:49

I am going to go against the grain here. I think that feminism has made young women feel like motherhood is optional, in the way young women never felt before, and that led to a false sense of having all the time in the world to make their minds up about whether they want children or not, and given men this sense that they are under no pressure to get serious about starting a family or being motivated to be a good provider.

The result is that there are many women who don’t tell men to sod off if they are not serious about starting a family. They waste their fertile years waiting for him to declare that he is ready, leave him when that day never arrives, then find themselves in a desperate spot in their late 30s and 40s and many ending up without children and regretting their situation bitterly.

The feeling of having all the time in the world before thinking about having a family, is thinking/feeling like a man. It’s an illusion. Women need to get serious about it earlier.

No need to duck for cover. I agree wholeheartedly. Societal expectations (education to degree level, and for some, a further degree or PhD) and biological processes have been getting out of sync for a few years now.
Yes, woman can have children in their forties, but they will usually have less stamina than they did in their twenties.

mathanxiety · 26/04/2024 16:32

SidewaysOtter · 26/04/2024 15:12

Motherhood IS optional. We have a society where contraception and abortion are acceptable to the vast majority and freely available, and feminists were heavily involved in bringing those things about.

I don’t think blame can be laid at the feminist door for misinformation on fertility, though. I’d say that’s more the fault of myths that society tells itself in the hope it will be true, and services pushed by certain sectors of the medical profession with regards egg freezing, infertility treatments and so on that give false hope and a distortion of biological reality. I don’t see how that’s the fault of feminists.

Indeed, and the decision to stick around with a man who won't commit is surely the antithesis of feminism (i.e. indulging in delusions related to men).

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 26/04/2024 16:33

AnnaKristie · 26/04/2024 16:27

No need to duck for cover. I agree wholeheartedly. Societal expectations (education to degree level, and for some, a further degree or PhD) and biological processes have been getting out of sync for a few years now.
Yes, woman can have children in their forties, but they will usually have less stamina than they did in their twenties.

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Motherhood is optional so hurray for feminism, for giving women choice, and not forcing them to be wives and mothers.

I agree that women have false expectations of the ease of conceiving in their late 30s or 40s, but that has nothing to do with feminism - quite the opposite. For professional women, anyway, it's largely due to treating men as the default employee, and refusing to adapt workplaces to suit women, forcing many women to wait until they are established in their careers before they feel they can take maternity leave. Feminism, which has always argued strongly that society should adapt to women, not women to society, is not the culprit.

LordSnot · 26/04/2024 16:35

Feminism has contributed to me being single, childfree and delighted about it. It's sad when people want marriage or children and don't get the opportunity but increasing numbers of us choose a single life. I can't think of anything that would tempt me into cohabiting and there's definitely nothing that would make make me want children.