“Feminism has left middle-aged women like me single, childless and depressed”

[MongoFrogman]

Article by Petronella Wyatt, thoughts?:

https://archive.ph/IBlas

Yes, this. It's sad for any woman who wanted children and couldn't have them (for biol or social reasons), but it's equally sad when a woman feels pressured into marriage and/or children, if that is not right for her. My mother and both grandmothers were deeply unhappy in their traditional roles, and I feel profoundly grateful that I had more choices than them.

She did, and he pressured her to terminate

What a load of utter tripe.

Although you are disagreeing with me, I love your argument. I think though, it’s not just about destitution. The author of the article should have married Mr Collins so at least she could have had a family, but feminism made her falsely believe she wouldn’t need to compromise on that front, that she wouldn’t need to depend on a man and she should deprioritise her need to procreate.

Although she may want to kill him or divorce him by now, she at least wouldn’t be feeling this depression caused by her unfulfilled primal needs.

Men are not forcing women to further their careers before having children. It's a choice that many women make for themselves.

Once again it is happily glazed over that not only are men also less able to have children after their 30s, but the children they do have after this time are significantly more likely to have health problems. Time limited fertility is not a woman only problem, stop perpetuating the lies that it is.

Male fertility does decline, but I know a fair few men have conceived naturally in their 50s even in his 60s - but post menopause it isn’t going to happen naturally for women. They don’t have the same hard stop.

Because, of course, no women who are married with kids ever feel depressed or unfulfilled...

I know what you are saying, but the unfulfilled primal need has a slightly different tone. Married women can divorce, their children will grow up, they can have a second wind, have a career change, etc. There’s no second chance at having kids once the window is closed.

What kind of father are they going to be in their 60s and 70s to young children and teens? It's not a goof comparison if they're not actually involved. Men who arent incllved arent really fathers, saying so is like buying a pot plant and pretending to be a gardener.

Many women remain fertile well into their 40s but don't want to have children then as your energy levels naturally decline a lot after this time.

If men have children after 35 the children are significantly more likely to have health problems of many kinds.

Unmarried women can have children....

I agree with you, it’s better for men to get serious and cracking earlier. It’s a bad thing that they feel less urgency and responsibility. But they still have the option after 50 which women don’t have.

I agree. She shouldn’t have had the termination.

The evidence does not support that. Childfree people are statistically just as happy as people with kids - and that includes people who started out wanting kids but who have come to terms with not having them.

Our views on this are massively skewed because it remains taboo to admit to regretting parenthood, whereas it's fine to talk about regretting childlessness. So most have us have never spoken to someone who admits to regretting being a parent, but they are out there. (I think very few people regret their actual children as people but, if you look at anonymous resources, there are many who feel they made the wrong choice in becoming a parent).

Some women feel a primal need for kids, I'm sure, but that is not universal.

I would say very few men have the 'option' after 50. Many have ED, many will struggle to conceive, many won't be able to attract a woman because they're not as attractive ads they were when younger. Many won't have the energy for an active sex life. Obviously some will, but it will be very few. Men are more likely to get ill earlier too, and of course on average die earlier.
Really, the problem is that this myth that 'men have all the time in the world whereas women's time comes to an abrupt end' which is really far from the truth and doesn't help anyone, men or women.

Fair enough. My lived experience is knowing far too many women who regret not having kids and the only women I know who admit they regret having children tend to have severely disabled and/or terminally ill children.

Ah, so the real culprit for leaving her single childless and depressed, is Boris, not feminism, if she wants to blame something other than herself. Feminism encourages women to think for themselves and do as they choose not as some man dictates.

I've followed debates about feminism for two decades or so, and this opinion piece genre has been quite popular, for a very long time.

Indeed, when I researched earlier writings I found examples from the 1970s onward.

They get lots more publicity (and always did) than any piece that would say how feminism has helped so many women live more equal lives, and how much more needs to be done to improve the lives of most women on this planet.

Funny, that difference, in who gets the publicity.

More generally, the big invisible elephant here is that most of the working world is still arranged on the pattern of all workers having someone at home taking care of children, the ailing family members, and the elderly, without formally getting paid for that work. Career paths are not based on the assumption that the typical worker would have to take some time off for having children or that the typical worker would be responsible for hands-on care of those children.

So the bitterness really is misdirected: It should be aimed at the way the labour markets are still organised and how temporary absences from work are punished etc.

The second wave feminists, at least some of them, tried to address this mismatch between what is expected of workers and what is expected of women, but though they made headway in other aspects of work they didn't get far enough on addressing this issue.

I'm also thinking of how odd many views about feminism seem to be. It's a bit as if we are blaming the person diagnosing something for the presence of an illness or blaming a rather poorly funded and not terribly powerful social movement as if it is running the global economic system. Not to even get into the complex strands of feminism and the clear current differences between different schools of feminist thought (some without any, to be honest).

I'm single and have no children, but am definitely not depressed!

My immediate response is that for women like her (which is not all middle-aged women) what makes them miserable is having grown up under a Partriachy that has continously told them their lives will be meaningless if they don't have a partner and kids. That's been a far 'louder' societal message than some imaginary 'Women should have jobs instead of relationships and children' which I don't think anyone's ever said.

But plenty of women her age have had an awakening and I think many older men and divorcees will be shocked to find that many unpartnered women their age these days will not be looking for a husband or partner anymore after becoming single like they might have in the past.

Exactly. She should visit rural Africa, where young women are saddled with five or six kids and no time or money to educate themselves or pursue a career. Feminism isn't about making everything OK. It's about freedom. It's about giving women a choice.

I'm single, child free, and in my 50s, with the career I always planned. And I'm happy about it, thanks. This was my life plan before I even knew what feminism was.

Exactly. And we see the same from some posters on this thread - that there is something existentially terrible about not having children, that is much worse than other unfulfilled desires. Obviously, for some individuals that is true, but it is wrong to assume it applies to all women.

Lots of people who did want kids, but who don't have them, come to terms with that, and have happy, fulfilled lives. Their lives aren't ruined by childlessness - because, for many people, it isn't a primal need, it's just one in a set of hopes/aspirations, not all of which can be fulfilled.

It's a pity that PW hasn't come to terms with her life, but it's not feminism's fault. As you say, it is more likely that she has been conditioned by her traditional upbringing to believe she has missed out on something essential for happiness.

I agree she's blaming the wrong people but I can understand grieving for a child you never had. She's clearly not in a good place so I'm backing off now.

People often blame feminism for things that are the fault of the patriarchy.