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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:17

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:06

Hardly 😂
Did you read the post I was responding to about "going back to the good old days"? It is nonsense. "The good old days" before trans was a thing was the 90s. I know that because I had a trans identifying flatmate in the 90s. He (biologically he) was nuts. But my point is, rape had only just been made illegal. Not long before, women couldn't get bank accounts. My grandmother was one if the very first women allowed into university.

There is no "golden age" to go back to.

No, there never has been a time when men didn't oppress women.

I'd like to try and move forward to a time where that is possible.

And in order to do that we need society to stop pretending that a woman is something you can identify as.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:17

ILikeDungs · 22/04/2024 21:13

There are around 70 million people in the UK.
I really can't get het up about the <10,000 with a GRC.

Toilets are being made 'gender neutral' all over the country, in the workplace, in schools, in music venues, in pubs and clubs...basically wherever there are toilets, because of those 10,000.

Don't get het up about them, sure, get het up about the bending over backwards to accommodate that very tiny number in every public establishment, everywhere, but not one fuck given to all of those raped victims you keep on bringing up.

How about: Let's sort out the raped women that have been badly treated in the court system, not change EVERY FUCKING THING for the few GRC holders and at the same time think aww, it does not matter, there's so few.

I don't think the government are proposing doing anything for any of those people.

Meanwhile a lot of feminist attention is on this, which means the Conservatives can ignore the shit going on in the court system (and numerous other issues affecting women day to day, such as no childcare, poverty, no health care, maternal death rates etc) and somehow still look as if they "support womens rights". It's crazy. Confused

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lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:18

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:14

I think you are being ridiculous about suggesting we "go back to the good old days".
(Some) TW have always used womens spaces. It's part of their condition. I am unclear as to what "good old days" you want to go back to. But I'm sure it's clear to you.

I don't ever recall seeing a transexual in women's toilets. I'm not saying they weren't there but I don't recall it.

Now any bloke can declare a gender identity of woman , including AGPs and other fetishists who get off on it.

You are again lying if you don't think that men now have a licence to be in women's toilets in a way they didn't previously.

Why do you care more about these men than the women they displace or harm Adam?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:18

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:17

I don't think the government are proposing doing anything for any of those people.

Meanwhile a lot of feminist attention is on this, which means the Conservatives can ignore the shit going on in the court system (and numerous other issues affecting women day to day, such as no childcare, poverty, no health care, maternal death rates etc) and somehow still look as if they "support womens rights". It's crazy. Confused

So why are Labour letting the Tories make political capital out of knowing what a woman is?

Do they want to be in power or not?

Karensalright · 22/04/2024 21:19

@AdamRyan

It was marital rape which in common law was made illegal in 1991, as a matter of fact. Abortion rights were secured in 1967 and, 1975 was when women could all have a bank account. I can recall trans people on a pride march early 80’s, all men. Some lesbians liked to look masculine at that time and called themselves butch.

It was a better time because i didn't have to worry about, children’s safety, toilets, refuge services, sport, etc

I just had to worry about sex discrimination and where it occurred on the basis of being a human adult female. Oh such happy days compared to now.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:21

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:18

So why are Labour letting the Tories make political capital out of knowing what a woman is?

Do they want to be in power or not?

I don't know. You could ask them. I'm more interested in why the government are sending 150 judges to Rwanda while rape victims can't get a trial date, to be honest.
Or why there's so little attention on the MP who has fraudulently used fund to "pay bad men".
Or the fact that some conservative MPs are so sexually incontinent they will send dick pics to total strangers. Children get taught thats a bad idea at school FFS.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:23

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:21

I don't know. You could ask them. I'm more interested in why the government are sending 150 judges to Rwanda while rape victims can't get a trial date, to be honest.
Or why there's so little attention on the MP who has fraudulently used fund to "pay bad men".
Or the fact that some conservative MPs are so sexually incontinent they will send dick pics to total strangers. Children get taught thats a bad idea at school FFS.

Do you genuinely believe that Labour want to be in power?

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:23

Karensalright · 22/04/2024 21:19

@AdamRyan

It was marital rape which in common law was made illegal in 1991, as a matter of fact. Abortion rights were secured in 1967 and, 1975 was when women could all have a bank account. I can recall trans people on a pride march early 80’s, all men. Some lesbians liked to look masculine at that time and called themselves butch.

It was a better time because i didn't have to worry about, children’s safety, toilets, refuge services, sport, etc

I just had to worry about sex discrimination and where it occurred on the basis of being a human adult female. Oh such happy days compared to now.

I think children are a lot safer now than when I was a child.
We didn't even know what grooming was and it was rife - sports clubs, scouts, churches, schools. Children are much safer now I think.

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JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:24

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:17

No, there never has been a time when men didn't oppress women.

I'd like to try and move forward to a time where that is possible.

And in order to do that we need society to stop pretending that a woman is something you can identify as.

Do we achieve that by accusing others of lying?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:25

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:24

Do we achieve that by accusing others of lying?

No, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend we believe they are telling the truth.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:23

Do you genuinely believe that Labour want to be in power?

I don't know and I'm not that interested. I know why I'll vote for them. And I don't like blatant misinformation about their position. Other than that I don't care.

I care a lot more about getting the Tories out as they are doing real harm. As the post I quoted in my OP shows.

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Karensalright · 22/04/2024 21:25

Oh Adam you fool, that is so not true, i heaved worked in all manner of social welfare areas since 1980, children are at far greater risk from predators now, as all they have to do is say they are Trans, and then we have the internet…..

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:26

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:23

I think children are a lot safer now than when I was a child.
We didn't even know what grooming was and it was rife - sports clubs, scouts, churches, schools. Children are much safer now I think.

Jesus wept.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 22/04/2024 21:27

Igmum · 22/04/2024 21:07

This is rather the look-over-there school of debate. The tactic is to either distract (women have no concentration and like shiny things) or lecture/hector (women are too stupid to decide for themselves what the important issues are and need to be told).

I think we are being insufficiently grateful.

Well it's working on me, because I'm as confused as all get out. Is this going to be another of those threads that converge on 'GC feminists are all hooking up with pro-natal rightists. Vote Labour!'?

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:27

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:25

No, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend we believe they are telling the truth.

No need to pretend when they are.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:27

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:25

I don't know and I'm not that interested. I know why I'll vote for them. And I don't like blatant misinformation about their position. Other than that I don't care.

I care a lot more about getting the Tories out as they are doing real harm. As the post I quoted in my OP shows.

Here's the thing.

I don't believe they want to be in power.

I think they much prefer sitting on the opposition benches, raking in a fat salary and expenses, and mouthing off about how awful the Tories are. I think they have zero ideas about how to fix the country and think it all sounds like rather hard work, to be honest.

I can't imagine why else, less than two years from a general election you're pretty much nailed on to win, you would start saying in the media that women can have penises.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:28

Oh and by the way, there is no plan to send 150 judges to Rwanda. You've got the wrong end of the stick.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:29

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:18

I don't ever recall seeing a transexual in women's toilets. I'm not saying they weren't there but I don't recall it.

Now any bloke can declare a gender identity of woman , including AGPs and other fetishists who get off on it.

You are again lying if you don't think that men now have a licence to be in women's toilets in a way they didn't previously.

Why do you care more about these men than the women they displace or harm Adam?

You are again lying if you don't think that men now have a licence to be in women's toilets in a way they didn't previously.

If I genuinely don't think that, its not a lie. It's a difference of opinion.

A lie would be if I did think men had that license, but was just pretending.

That's kind of what "lying" means. It doesn't mean "saying something dime disagrees with'. It means being intentionally untruthful.

My opinion is there are no more TW in women's toilets than there used to be. I haven't seen more in any case.

Some organisations have been giving TW access to single sex spaces when they shouldn't have, those organisations need to better apply the law.

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JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:31

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:29

You are again lying if you don't think that men now have a licence to be in women's toilets in a way they didn't previously.

If I genuinely don't think that, its not a lie. It's a difference of opinion.

A lie would be if I did think men had that license, but was just pretending.

That's kind of what "lying" means. It doesn't mean "saying something dime disagrees with'. It means being intentionally untruthful.

My opinion is there are no more TW in women's toilets than there used to be. I haven't seen more in any case.

Some organisations have been giving TW access to single sex spaces when they shouldn't have, those organisations need to better apply the law.

But those organisations have been CAPTURED by a very bad thing.

Thinking about it, perhaps those organisations could ring the local Tory party treasurers to bail them out from the bad thing.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:31

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:02

I don't believe schools are actively transitioning children without their parents knowledge, no.
I cam believe schools are managing the situation if children tell them they are trans but that's not the same thing.

Your turn now. You don't believe people have been recognised as the opposite sex ever? Seriously?

From my professional experience I can tell you that you are very wrong on this one. But you know that.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:32

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:28

Oh and by the way, there is no plan to send 150 judges to Rwanda. You've got the wrong end of the stick.

Sunak added: ‘To deal with any legal cases quickly and decisively, the judiciary have made available 25 courtrooms and identified 150 judges who could provide over 5,000 sitting days.’

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/sunak-150-judges-ready-to-hear-rwanda-appeals/5119444.article#:~:text=Sunak%20added%3A%20'To%20deal%20with,within%2010%20to%2012%20weeks.

Maybe he's not sending them abroad but he is diverting their effort onto a scheme he has no mandate for. While some rape victims have been waiting 7 years for their cases to come to trial. It's disgraceful.

Prime minister Rishi Sunak holds press conference on government's controversial Rwanda policy

Sunak: 150 judges ready to hear Rwanda appeals

PM says judiciary has made available 25 courtrooms and identified 150 judges who could provide over 5,000 sitting days.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/sunak-150-judges-ready-to-hear-rwanda-appeals/5119444.article#:~:text=Sunak%20added%3A%20'To%20deal%20with,within%2010%20to%2012%20weeks.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:34

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:31

From my professional experience I can tell you that you are very wrong on this one. But you know that.

Why would I believe you. It's the Internet and anyone can say anything, as scarlett rightly pointed out. Apparently we are now fine to call women liars on this board.

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lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:34

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:29

You are again lying if you don't think that men now have a licence to be in women's toilets in a way they didn't previously.

If I genuinely don't think that, its not a lie. It's a difference of opinion.

A lie would be if I did think men had that license, but was just pretending.

That's kind of what "lying" means. It doesn't mean "saying something dime disagrees with'. It means being intentionally untruthful.

My opinion is there are no more TW in women's toilets than there used to be. I haven't seen more in any case.

Some organisations have been giving TW access to single sex spaces when they shouldn't have, those organisations need to better apply the law.

Ok so let's try a different tack.

How many girls were sexually assaulted by trans women in women's toilets prior to recent onslaught of trans women in women's spaces caused by the GRA and Stonewall laws?

Did Eddie Izzard go in women's toilets when they were his clothes ? Does he go in them when in girl mode now?

These are just 2 high profile examples.

There are clearly more men(trans women) in women's toilets otherwise universities wouldn't have put up posters telling women to ignore their instincts when it comes to men in women's toilets! Were they just wasting printing resources by posting those on the walls?

Karensalright · 22/04/2024 21:35

Am not a fan of debating who one might vote for, as firmly GC we have to accept that we may differ on all manner of issues not relating to gender ideology.

Adams plan seems to me to be trying to generate partisan splits within our group, which must be resisted.

I think we have, BTW.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:35

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:32

Sunak added: ‘To deal with any legal cases quickly and decisively, the judiciary have made available 25 courtrooms and identified 150 judges who could provide over 5,000 sitting days.’

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/sunak-150-judges-ready-to-hear-rwanda-appeals/5119444.article#:~:text=Sunak%20added%3A%20'To%20deal%20with,within%2010%20to%2012%20weeks.

Maybe he's not sending them abroad but he is diverting their effort onto a scheme he has no mandate for. While some rape victims have been waiting 7 years for their cases to come to trial. It's disgraceful.

So there is no plan to send any judges to Rwanda then.

Just for some judges to hear cases relating to the Rwanda policy.

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