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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

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NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:42

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:39

Is the latest tactic referring to people who don’t agree as “they”? Adam and I are both women - she or her work.

'They' is standard English for referring to singular people and has been in use since the 14th century.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:42

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:33

Stop being patronising, Adam.

You saying you don't get it, therefore it's hyperbolic, is faux naivety at best.

Transwomen very rarely pass, particularly in close quarters. Before men could just say they were women and have carte blanche to enter women's spaces, you could (and did) tell men to get out of the ladies. Now it's not possible or acceptable to do this. We're back to the social contract, which is now broken.

But fine, you accept men in the ladies. You just shrug at all the women this excludes because they can't use mixed sex spaces.

Letting them into loos lets them into every woman's space. You don't want them in changing rooms, but by accepting them in loos, you open the door to all single sex spaces.

I don't think you realise how naive you're being and really quite clueless.

So you have no answer. Fine.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:42

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:39

Is the latest tactic referring to people who don’t agree as “they”? Adam and I are both women - she or her work.

You claim to be women. So do loads of men.

How can we possibly tell?

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:43

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:40

Oh no, you don’t get to do that. You’re not bullying me off the thread.

It was a comment to say that if you're bored, you don't have to be here. That isn't bullying, and if you think it is, then you have a bizarre definition of it.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:43

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:42

You claim to be women. So do loads of men.

How can we possibly tell?

Apparently just by looking one will know and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:44

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:43

It was a comment to say that if you're bored, you don't have to be here. That isn't bullying, and if you think it is, then you have a bizarre definition of it.

For genderists words are meaningless. I'm now awaiting the deletion message.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:44

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:42

So you have no answer. Fine.

That was an answer. You choosing not to like it doesn't make it a non-answer. You're goading.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:44

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:37

It’s been very, very boring for some time. The same old points round and round and round. Constant riffs about toilets. Anyone who’s only borderline bored has a very high boredom threshold.

True facts as my teens would say

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:44

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:43

Apparently just by looking one will know and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Irony not your thing hey Jess?

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:45

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 22:32

No one is being hyperbolic. You said earlier that you believe in single sex toilets in schools. And yet you have no qualms about young teenage girls sharing unsupervised public toilets with grown men.

This is a recent problem caused by the GRA passed by Labour introducing the concept of legal sex. It can be changed.

I actually said the opposite but don't let the truth affect your view

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BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:46

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:43

It was a comment to say that if you're bored, you don't have to be here. That isn't bullying, and if you think it is, then you have a bizarre definition of it.

This thread has been pretty much constant bullying and hectoring for the entire evening. It’s why I refuse to engage with one of you.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 22:47

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:29

It really isn’t. In fact if anything it’s an excuse.

Sorry, I don't follow. An excuse for what? Bad behaviour? How do you figure that?

As an analogy, lions are dangerous. Lions kept away from lambs are not a danger to lambs. Lions in the same space as lambs are a danger to lambs. The change in access didn't change the lion yet it still increased the danger to the lamb.

Oh hang on, do you mean men shouldn't be allowed to behave like that in the first place? I 100% agree with you there.

But feminists have been trying to get society to do someting about men's bad behaviour for a long time and so far it's not sticking.

That is not to say we should accept it and stop trying of course.

But at the same time, until such a time as society suceeds in fixing the men, as well as not instead of continuing to try, society needs to reduce the risk they pose to potential victims.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:49

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:46

This thread has been pretty much constant bullying and hectoring for the entire evening. It’s why I refuse to engage with one of you.

No it hasn't. Robust responses in disagreement aren't bullying or hectoring.

It's just debating (dictionary definition: Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

debate

verb
gerund or present participle: debating

  1. argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
  2. "MPs debated the issue in the Commons"'

Oxford Languages and Google - English | Oxford Languages

Google’s English dictionary is provided by Oxford Languages. Oxford Languages is the world’s leading dictionary publisher, with over 150 years of experience creating and delivering authoritative dictionaries globally in more than 50 languages.

https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:50

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:42

You claim to be women. So do loads of men.

How can we possibly tell?

I could send a photo of my vajayjay but I think it would be deleted 😂

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:51

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:44

That was an answer. You choosing not to like it doesn't make it a non-answer. You're goading.

I'll try again:
When do you think TW were kept out? What is your evidence for this?

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NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:51

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:50

I could send a photo of my vajayjay but I think it would be deleted 😂

That could be anybody's...

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:52

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:51

I'll try again:
When do you think TW were kept out? What is your evidence for this?

Nope. Not biting.

Stop being goady.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:52

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:49

No it hasn't. Robust responses in disagreement aren't bullying or hectoring.

It's just debating (dictionary definition: Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

debate

verb
gerund or present participle: debating

  1. argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
  2. "MPs debated the issue in the Commons"'

It’s been a pile on. It’s been like watching the mean girls in the playground. It bears no resemblance to any feminism I’ve encountered in 50 odd years.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 25/04/2024 22:53

Surely it would be a picture of a vulva adam 😳

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:53

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:51

I'll try again:
When do you think TW were kept out? What is your evidence for this?

But actually - just advanced search me Confused I've posted here for ages. I'm a woman with PMDD, a condition only women have. Either I'm playing a very long game, or I'm a woman. Occams razor applies.

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JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:54

About the most exciting thing left for this thread is finding out who will get the last word.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:54

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:52

It’s been a pile on. It’s been like watching the mean girls in the playground. It bears no resemblance to any feminism I’ve encountered in 50 odd years.

Nor does throwing women under a bus by shrugging about men in women's single sex spaces. 🤷‍♀️

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:56

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:54

Nor does throwing women under a bus by shrugging about men in women's single sex spaces. 🤷‍♀️

Well at least you’ve stopped denying it. That’s something I suppose.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:56

RufustheFactualReindeer · 25/04/2024 22:53

Surely it would be a picture of a vulva adam 😳

😂
What is the difference between a vajayjay and a vulva?
Actually maybe my peri moustache would work better 😂my HRT?

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:56

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:54

About the most exciting thing left for this thread is finding out who will get the last word.

I think I love you 😍

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