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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:00

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 20:59

Yes. Let's go back to the good old days.
Would those be the days where marital rape was legal?
Or the ones where you needed your husbands permission to get a bank account?
Or the ones where women weren't allowed in the pub alone?
Maybe the ones where they had to give up work when pregnant?
Or the ones where black/inuit/native American women were sterilised and given long acting contraceptives without their knowledge?
I know, lets go back to the days where women were banned from playing competitive football because it upset the men.
And the pass rate for the 11+ was lower for boys so girls didn't take too mamy spaces.

We were amazing at prioritising women. It's all the fault of the GRA and stonewall that everything's gone to shit.

Confused

Oh wow.

And we're back in "if you don't accept that men can be women we'll take away your reproductive rights" territory.

BIossomtoes · 22/04/2024 21:00

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:42

Sorry but I just don't believe the people who claim not to be able to tell what sex someone is.

Believe what you like. It happened. Two of us had no idea and we discussed it at length.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:01

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 20:59

Yes. Let's go back to the good old days.
Would those be the days where marital rape was legal?
Or the ones where you needed your husbands permission to get a bank account?
Or the ones where women weren't allowed in the pub alone?
Maybe the ones where they had to give up work when pregnant?
Or the ones where black/inuit/native American women were sterilised and given long acting contraceptives without their knowledge?
I know, lets go back to the days where women were banned from playing competitive football because it upset the men.
And the pass rate for the 11+ was lower for boys so girls didn't take too mamy spaces.

We were amazing at prioritising women. It's all the fault of the GRA and stonewall that everything's gone to shit.

Confused

TRA debating skills do leave such a lot to be desired.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:02

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 20:59

Yes. Let's go back to the good old days.
Would those be the days where marital rape was legal?
Or the ones where you needed your husbands permission to get a bank account?
Or the ones where women weren't allowed in the pub alone?
Maybe the ones where they had to give up work when pregnant?
Or the ones where black/inuit/native American women were sterilised and given long acting contraceptives without their knowledge?
I know, lets go back to the days where women were banned from playing competitive football because it upset the men.
And the pass rate for the 11+ was lower for boys so girls didn't take too mamy spaces.

We were amazing at prioritising women. It's all the fault of the GRA and stonewall that everything's gone to shit.

Confused

For fucks sake Adam.

Stop persisting with the either / or.

Women don't have to give anything up to be treated as fully human and to stop males from being in single sex spaces.

I know you are not stupid. You know that so stop lying.

It will not cost us any of these things to have the right to single sex spaces.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:02

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:50

I also got a talking to when i said I didn't believe that schools were "transing children" without the parents knowledge

You don't believe that this has happened in schools? Seriously?!

I don't believe schools are actively transitioning children without their parents knowledge, no.
I cam believe schools are managing the situation if children tell them they are trans but that's not the same thing.

Your turn now. You don't believe people have been recognised as the opposite sex ever? Seriously?

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:02

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:01

TRA debating skills do leave such a lot to be desired.

Well it's quite difficult to hone your debating skills at the same time as insisting that there must be no debate.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:03

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:02

For fucks sake Adam.

Stop persisting with the either / or.

Women don't have to give anything up to be treated as fully human and to stop males from being in single sex spaces.

I know you are not stupid. You know that so stop lying.

It will not cost us any of these things to have the right to single sex spaces.

There is no lie in my post.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:03

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:03

There is no lie in my post.

There's nothing relevant in your post either.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:04

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:03

There is no lie in my post.

Of course there is.

You are implying that if women want single sex spaces we have to give up our reproductive rights.

That's simply untrue. Complete bollocks.

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 21:04

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:03

There is no lie in my post.

There's a whopping great false dichotomy though.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 22/04/2024 21:06

The aspect of @AdamRyan 's OP that concerns me most is that the Equality Act already provides for women-only sports, spaces, shortlists etc etc, yet they are all being taken away. Not by Labour or the Tories, but by institutions captured and/or wrongly legally advised by Stonewall etc.

Badenoch and Truss have promised to reverse this, and Labour have said something vaguely similar. Adam: are you in favour? What's with the toilets? Is it true you're a TRA - I missed the memo on that. And, can we trust Labour?

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:06

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:00

Oh wow.

And we're back in "if you don't accept that men can be women we'll take away your reproductive rights" territory.

Hardly 😂
Did you read the post I was responding to about "going back to the good old days"? It is nonsense. "The good old days" before trans was a thing was the 90s. I know that because I had a trans identifying flatmate in the 90s. He (biologically he) was nuts. But my point is, rape had only just been made illegal. Not long before, women couldn't get bank accounts. My grandmother was one if the very first women allowed into university.

There is no "golden age" to go back to.

OP posts:
Igmum · 22/04/2024 21:07

This is rather the look-over-there school of debate. The tactic is to either distract (women have no concentration and like shiny things) or lecture/hector (women are too stupid to decide for themselves what the important issues are and need to be told).

I think we are being insufficiently grateful.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:08

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:04

Of course there is.

You are implying that if women want single sex spaces we have to give up our reproductive rights.

That's simply untrue. Complete bollocks.

HmmConfused
I was responding to your post. I think I'll leave it there because as usual I don't really understand the point you are trying to make and you seem to have forgotten what you wrote in the first place.

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lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:08

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:06

Hardly 😂
Did you read the post I was responding to about "going back to the good old days"? It is nonsense. "The good old days" before trans was a thing was the 90s. I know that because I had a trans identifying flatmate in the 90s. He (biologically he) was nuts. But my point is, rape had only just been made illegal. Not long before, women couldn't get bank accounts. My grandmother was one if the very first women allowed into university.

There is no "golden age" to go back to.

Well then you are just being silly.

It's only the last few years that men have been overreaching because of stonewall laws/ the impact of the GRC in conjunction with that.

None of the things you listed were that recent.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:09

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 20:58

And?
My daughter was mistaken for being a boy for years pre-puberty when she thought she was a boy.

Now she doesn't think that anymore.

Why are you using this to support men being in women's single sex spaces?

I think perhaps you have mistaken me for another poster, since I have never said that men should be in women's single sex spaces.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:10

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:09

I think perhaps you have mistaken me for another poster, since I have never said that men should be in women's single sex spaces.

So what DO you stand for then Jess, is it trans women in women's single sex spaces?

Because they are ALSO men even if your belief system says otherwise.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:12

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:58

Everyone has an agenda. You are no exception.

Are you going to apologise for saying I was lying when I was not?

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:12

I am really happy MNHQ moved this thread. The facts that bigcoat raised are getting the good,objective FWR treatment for sure Confused

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ILikeDungs · 22/04/2024 21:13

There are around 70 million people in the UK.
I really can't get het up about the <10,000 with a GRC.

Toilets are being made 'gender neutral' all over the country, in the workplace, in schools, in music venues, in pubs and clubs...basically wherever there are toilets, because of those 10,000.

Don't get het up about them, sure, get het up about the bending over backwards to accommodate that very tiny number in every public establishment, everywhere, but not one fuck given to all of those raped victims you keep on bringing up.

How about: Let's sort out the raped women that have been badly treated in the court system, not change EVERY FUCKING THING for the few GRC holders and at the same time think aww, it does not matter, there's so few.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:14

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:01

TRA debating skills do leave such a lot to be desired.

I love your use of irony.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:14

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:08

Well then you are just being silly.

It's only the last few years that men have been overreaching because of stonewall laws/ the impact of the GRC in conjunction with that.

None of the things you listed were that recent.

Edited

I think you are being ridiculous about suggesting we "go back to the good old days".
(Some) TW have always used womens spaces. It's part of their condition. I am unclear as to what "good old days" you want to go back to. But I'm sure it's clear to you.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:14

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:12

Are you going to apologise for saying I was lying when I was not?

Why? There's absolutely no proof that you weren't, and I have no reason to believe you.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 22/04/2024 21:15

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:42

Sorry but I just don't believe the people who claim not to be able to tell what sex someone is.

Oh I believe them, I have no doubt a handful of people are mis-sexed from time to time.

But saying "we can't always tell so there's no point in having the rules" is like saying we can't tell who might pick our pockets so there's no point in making it illegal.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:16

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:02

Well it's quite difficult to hone your debating skills at the same time as insisting that there must be no debate.

Thanks for the laugh.

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