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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
theilltemperedclavecinist · 22/04/2024 21:36

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:29

You are again lying if you don't think that men now have a licence to be in women's toilets in a way they didn't previously.

If I genuinely don't think that, its not a lie. It's a difference of opinion.

A lie would be if I did think men had that license, but was just pretending.

That's kind of what "lying" means. It doesn't mean "saying something dime disagrees with'. It means being intentionally untruthful.

My opinion is there are no more TW in women's toilets than there used to be. I haven't seen more in any case.

Some organisations have been giving TW access to single sex spaces when they shouldn't have, those organisations need to better apply the law.

The problem isn't the TW in the women's toilet. It's the sign that says 'if you see someone who doesn't belong, don't challenge them'. It lets all the men in.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:37

Karensalright · 22/04/2024 21:25

Oh Adam you fool, that is so not true, i heaved worked in all manner of social welfare areas since 1980, children are at far greater risk from predators now, as all they have to do is say they are Trans, and then we have the internet…..

This. This poster knows very little about safeguarding and is happy to welcome men in to women's and girls' single sex loos.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:37

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:34

Why would I believe you. It's the Internet and anyone can say anything, as scarlett rightly pointed out. Apparently we are now fine to call women liars on this board.

If that wasn't happening we wouldn't need the DfE to produce guidance telling schools it shouldn't be happening.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:42

Adam how many women / girls harmed in women's toilets are enough for you to care about women and girls more than the males you want to continue to have access?

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:44

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:34

Ok so let's try a different tack.

How many girls were sexually assaulted by trans women in women's toilets prior to recent onslaught of trans women in women's spaces caused by the GRA and Stonewall laws?

Did Eddie Izzard go in women's toilets when they were his clothes ? Does he go in them when in girl mode now?

These are just 2 high profile examples.

There are clearly more men(trans women) in women's toilets otherwise universities wouldn't have put up posters telling women to ignore their instincts when it comes to men in women's toilets! Were they just wasting printing resources by posting those on the walls?

Edited

What's a Stonewall law?

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:35

So there is no plan to send any judges to Rwanda then.

Just for some judges to hear cases relating to the Rwanda policy.

Someone who was once Prime Minister lied, so I now know that Sunak is lying and there are plans to send 150 judges to Rwanda.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:47

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:37

If that wasn't happening we wouldn't need the DfE to produce guidance telling schools it shouldn't be happening.

The DofE has provided guidance on how to identify liars?
That's excellent news, do you have a link to it?

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:47

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:44

What's a Stonewall law?

I note you haven't answered my question about whether you consider trans women to be men when you say you don't want men in women's spaces.

Perhaps if you answer that I'll respond to this.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:48

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:47

The DofE has provided guidance on how to identify liars?
That's excellent news, do you have a link to it?

Really just stop it. Your tiresome and juvenile derails just make you look very silly.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:49

Karensalright · 22/04/2024 21:25

Oh Adam you fool, that is so not true, i heaved worked in all manner of social welfare areas since 1980, children are at far greater risk from predators now, as all they have to do is say they are Trans, and then we have the internet…..

Do you have any evidence showing that or can I just say its the Internet and you could be anyone?

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:49

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:48

Really just stop it. Your tiresome and juvenile derails just make you look very silly.

Edited

Yep. I'm not going to engage anymore.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 21:49

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:47

The DofE has provided guidance on how to identify liars?
That's excellent news, do you have a link to it?

they are referring to children being ‘transed’ at schools

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:50

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:49

Yep. I'm not going to engage anymore.

Wise I think.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 21:52

How are children in less danger from predators when the internet and social media has the potential to bring the predators right into your home

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:52

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:37

This. This poster knows very little about safeguarding and is happy to welcome men in to women's and girls' single sex loos.

Edited

Stop misrepresenting me.

I don't think its practical or possible to stop (some) TW using the ladies. That is not the same as "happy to welcome men into women's and girls single sex loos".

It's not hard to understand my position. I can only assume the increasingly vitriolic response is because you've got no actual response to make.

OP posts:
Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:54

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:52

Stop misrepresenting me.

I don't think its practical or possible to stop (some) TW using the ladies. That is not the same as "happy to welcome men into women's and girls single sex loos".

It's not hard to understand my position. I can only assume the increasingly vitriolic response is because you've got no actual response to make.

No vitriol here at all. Just your words.

  1. You have clearly demonstrated that you do not understand safeguarding
  2. You think that it's ok for TW (men) to share public loos with women and girls - you have said this many times on multiple threads
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 21:54

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:52

Stop misrepresenting me.

I don't think its practical or possible to stop (some) TW using the ladies. That is not the same as "happy to welcome men into women's and girls single sex loos".

It's not hard to understand my position. I can only assume the increasingly vitriolic response is because you've got no actual response to make.

Not possible?

That would suggest you think that people who know full well they are male cannot be trusted to do the decent thing and stay out of women's single sex spaces.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:56

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 21:48

Really just stop it. Your tiresome and juvenile derails just make you look very silly.

Edited

You see, because someone else said that to me and they had an agenda I know you are lying, and in reality you actually really like my post.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 21:57

and in reality you actually really like my post

actually this one is provable with the little thanks thingy

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:57

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 21:52

Stop misrepresenting me.

I don't think its practical or possible to stop (some) TW using the ladies. That is not the same as "happy to welcome men into women's and girls single sex loos".

It's not hard to understand my position. I can only assume the increasingly vitriolic response is because you've got no actual response to make.

It might be as well to stop engaging with those on this thread who have nothing constructive to offer.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:59

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 21:57

and in reality you actually really like my post

actually this one is provable with the little thanks thingy

Thanks for the thanks, much obliged.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 21:59

Jess did you have my first post removed which was asking whether you class trans women as men when it comes to your assertion that you agree that no men should be in women's single sex spaces?

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 21:59

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 21:59

Thanks for the thanks, much obliged.

Prove it 😀

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 22:00

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 21:59

Prove it 😀

No need to, I know.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 22/04/2024 22:01

No proof then 🥺

what a shame

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