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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:57

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:51

I'll try again:
When do you think TW were kept out? What is your evidence for this?

I don't think TW were ever specifically excluded but then it's only in recent years we've had issues with increasing numbers of men being emboldened to identify as trans and then using that identity to gain access to women and children in vulnerable situations.

Do you think the number of women and children assaulted or raped in women's single sex spaces has increased since the advent of the GRA or not Adam? That is the relevant question.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:58

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:56

I think I love you 😍

I am really hoping to have the last post, then I will know I have won the thread.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:59

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:58

I am really hoping to have the last post, then I will know I have won the thread.

🤣

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 22:59

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:42

Has there been any opposition to the statements of fact set out in the OP?
Or are we getting to the end of the thread with all in agreement with the OP?

Hi, JessS1990

Did you see my post earlier in response to your remark about rapes in homes vs rape in public toilets?

I'd be interested to hear your response. If you don't want to engage with it, just let me know.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:00

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:59

🤣

So close now, let it be me.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:00

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:57

I don't think TW were ever specifically excluded but then it's only in recent years we've had issues with increasing numbers of men being emboldened to identify as trans and then using that identity to gain access to women and children in vulnerable situations.

Do you think the number of women and children assaulted or raped in women's single sex spaces has increased since the advent of the GRA or not Adam? That is the relevant question.

I think its increased since the advent of smartphones and the Internet to be honest.
Men "being emboldened" has happened during the Tory reign.

This is a social thing, not a political thing in my opinion.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 23:00

I think identifying as feminist has no bearing with being one for the posters who dgaf about women's single sex spaces.

A bit like how identifying as a woman bears no resemblance to being one.

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 23:00

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:43

Apparently just by looking one will know and anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Can you see me?

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:01

This one.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:01

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:01

This one.

Bother.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 23:02

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:56

Well at least you’ve stopped denying it. That’s something I suppose.

You misunderstood.

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 23:02

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:45

I actually said the opposite but don't let the truth affect your view

I do apologise for overestimating you.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:02

Yes.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 23:03

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 23:02

You misunderstood.

Difficult to misunderstand an absence. You stopped denying it.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 23:04

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 23:03

Difficult to misunderstand an absence. You stopped denying it.

Denying what?

I consider myself a feminist as I stand up for women's rights. I don't consider anyone who just shrugs about men in women's spaces to be one.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 23:05

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:00

I think its increased since the advent of smartphones and the Internet to be honest.
Men "being emboldened" has happened during the Tory reign.

This is a social thing, not a political thing in my opinion.

So GRA is an irrelevance to you?

The fact that men were told that they could be legal women and change their birth certificate made not a jot of difference?

When scenarios (which might be social ones) have a negative impact on a class of people who do we look to to address it?

It might start as a social thing but then we look to politics to remove the harm. What is the point in politics if it is not to improve the lot of the electorate?

if the electorate are asking politicians to consider their needs due to social issues which are harming them, do you think the right approach is to listen to their concerns or to call them bigots and then tell them that you do don't want their membership?

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 23:07

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 23:04

Denying what?

I consider myself a feminist as I stand up for women's rights. I don't consider anyone who just shrugs about men in women's spaces to be one.

I really don’t care whether or not someone with your attitude considers me a feminist or not. I’ve been one since I was 17 which was probably before you were born.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:07

Oh is it me? 🙏

OP posts:
JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:08

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:07

Oh is it me? 🙏

No me.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:09

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 23:02

I do apologise for overestimating you.

What you actually did is let your confirmation bias cloud reality.
A common problem, I don't hold it against you

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:09

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 23:07

I really don’t care whether or not someone with your attitude considers me a feminist or not. I’ve been one since I was 17 which was probably before you were born.

I think i love you too

And rufus

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:10

Is it me? 🤞

OP posts:
JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 23:11

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 23:10

Is it me? 🤞

Its got to be soon now.

Thread winner?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 23:12

operation let them speak.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 23:13

In full action.

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