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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:20

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:05

I'm saying I am inclined not to trust anyone who says these things actually happened.

Calling me and my kids liars? Nice.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:21

Can you answer my question about what being ngc (assuming you mean non gender conforming) means?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:21

pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:20

Calling me and my kids liars? Nice.

I don't know who you or your kids are. You could be anyone.

People lie all the time.

Like the woman in the Pink News article.

pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:22

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:09

I am pleased to hear this. It's good to know that women are being vigilant in protecting single sex spaces and I am sure that when the misunderstanding was rectified, everyone got on with their day. As women I am sure that your daughters understood this.

Well no - in one instance, by non GC child was basically verbally abused and told to get out of the bathroom by a very aggressive and probably quite drunk woman. For a NGC young person with autism that was as you can imagine highly distressing.

Clavinova · 22/04/2024 20:22

AdamRyan
In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government.

They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

Self-ID clearly was a Labour proposal as well - it was in Labour's 2019 Manifesto
(page 38 - NB I think only the large print version is available on-line now).
Extract from the Manifesto here;

LGBT+ Equality
Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people.

See also Jeremy Corbyn 2017/Labour's 2017 Manifesto:

Jeremy Corbyn has challenged Theresa May to allow people to self-identify as transgender without having to go through medical checks, pledging that Labour would support any government attempt to change the law.

“Discrimination has gone on too long. The Gender Recognition Act does not allow trans people to self-identify their gender and forces them to undergo invasive medical tests. This is wrong,” he said.

“Labour recognised this in our [2017] manifesto, pledging to update the act.

“So, I say to [Theresa May] today, Labour will help you keep your promise. Bring forward a bill to update the act and improve trans rights and Labour will back you. You can give your MPs and the DUP a free vote and Labour will make it law.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:18

In this entirely hypothetical scenario, perhaps birth registered males should stay out of women's toilets and then the women using them will be less paranoid and less likely to mistake a woman for a man.

Its not hypothetical.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:25

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:23

Its not hypothetical.

If you say so.

The woman in the Pink News article is also claiming it wasn't hypothetical, and yet if anyone has ever mistaken her for a man, I'm a monkey's uncle.

It's laughable that even Pink News, with their obvious agenda, couldn't find a woman who looked even slightly like a man to be the face of that piece of nonsense.

Clavinova · 22/04/2024 20:25

AdamRyan
They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal

See also Keir Starmer here in 2021;

Labour’s Keir Starmer doubles down on vow to reform Gender Recognition Act and introduce self-ID for trans people.

The Labour leader made the pledge to the LGBT+ community as part of a video message for PinkNews‘ Pride for All celebrations on Wednesday (9 June).
(Video message in the link - 2:22 in the clip)

Starmer’s decisive call for action drew a sharp contrast from the Tories and won him effusive praise from LGBT+ veteran Michael Cashman, who said he planned to rejoin the party.

“Absolutely brilliant. No equivocation. This is what I call leadership. Congratulations Keir Starmer,” Cashman tweeted. “Tomorrow I apply to rejoin Labour.”

https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/06/10/keir-starmer-labour-party-gender-recognition-act-self-id-trans-people-pride/

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:25

pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:22

Well no - in one instance, by non GC child was basically verbally abused and told to get out of the bathroom by a very aggressive and probably quite drunk woman. For a NGC young person with autism that was as you can imagine highly distressing.

I am sorry to hear that. Can you let me know how your daughter is non gender conforming as I really am not sure I understand?

As Scarlet has said, the only way to fix this is to make it like it was - no males in women and girls spaces. Then no one would be on high alert or worried in the way that I am every time I have to use a public loo/changing room.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:25

If you say so.

The woman in the Pink News article is also claiming it wasn't hypothetical, and yet if anyone has ever mistaken her for a man, I'm a monkey's uncle.

It's laughable that even Pink News, with their obvious agenda, couldn't find a woman who looked even slightly like a man to be the face of that piece of nonsense.

Yes she would NEVER be mistaken for any kind of male! 😂

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:26

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:25

I am sorry to hear that. Can you let me know how your daughter is non gender conforming as I really am not sure I understand?

As Scarlet has said, the only way to fix this is to make it like it was - no males in women and girls spaces. Then no one would be on high alert or worried in the way that I am every time I have to use a public loo/changing room.

And you do that by bullying vulnerable people?

pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:28

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:21

Can you answer my question about what being ngc (assuming you mean non gender conforming) means?

No, I won't. Because you're going to decide that we are all liars anyway. This is what you GC feminists do - and you accuse the rest of us of shutting down debate. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:32

It was a genuine question pointythings. I have already said that I am sorry that your daughter was questioned about her sex if this upset her. I was just trying to work out what you meant by non gender conforming.

Assuming that you won't answer the question because saying short hair and trousers sounds a bit silly.

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 20:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:36

pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:28

No, I won't. Because you're going to decide that we are all liars anyway. This is what you GC feminists do - and you accuse the rest of us of shutting down debate. The hypocrisy is astounding.

It's not personal.

But anyone can say anything on the internet.

And all the women I've seen on the internet claiming to have been challenged in women's toilets by people who thought they were men, who have been silly enough to put a photo to their name, are obviously lying. They also invariably self describe as "cis" and have pronouns.

It has nothing to do with shutting down debate. If you needed to believe someone in order to debate with them, that would be problematic in all kinds of ways. We can debate all you like. You can talk about "cis women" being challenged in women's toilets in order to pretend that it's not always possible to tell what sex someone is. I just don't have to believe you, or even pretend to.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 20:39

Clavinova · 22/04/2024 20:22

AdamRyan
In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government.

They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

Self-ID clearly was a Labour proposal as well - it was in Labour's 2019 Manifesto
(page 38 - NB I think only the large print version is available on-line now).
Extract from the Manifesto here;

LGBT+ Equality
Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people.

See also Jeremy Corbyn 2017/Labour's 2017 Manifesto:

Jeremy Corbyn has challenged Theresa May to allow people to self-identify as transgender without having to go through medical checks, pledging that Labour would support any government attempt to change the law.

“Discrimination has gone on too long. The Gender Recognition Act does not allow trans people to self-identify their gender and forces them to undergo invasive medical tests. This is wrong,” he said.

“Labour recognised this in our [2017] manifesto, pledging to update the act.

“So, I say to [Theresa May] today, Labour will help you keep your promise. Bring forward a bill to update the act and improve trans rights and Labour will back you. You can give your MPs and the DUP a free vote and Labour will make it law.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may

Oh hello clav. Not seen you here before.
Those aren't my words. Corbyn was batshit. Luckily him and momentum are not a thing any more. Hence L'OJs flounce.

OP posts:
ItsFunToBeAVampire · 22/04/2024 20:41

pointythings · 22/04/2024 20:28

No, I won't. Because you're going to decide that we are all liars anyway. This is what you GC feminists do - and you accuse the rest of us of shutting down debate. The hypocrisy is astounding.

Haven't you said that you've got 2 trans kids on other threads?

If a girl goes out of their way to look like a boy, and I mean more than just short hair and trousers, there's a greater possibility that they'll be challenged in the single-sex spaces. Surely that's obvious.

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 20:42

Adam, you mean you are not a crazed Corbyn supporting TRA?

I am gutted.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 20:43

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:36

It's not personal.

But anyone can say anything on the internet.

And all the women I've seen on the internet claiming to have been challenged in women's toilets by people who thought they were men, who have been silly enough to put a photo to their name, are obviously lying. They also invariably self describe as "cis" and have pronouns.

It has nothing to do with shutting down debate. If you needed to believe someone in order to debate with them, that would be problematic in all kinds of ways. We can debate all you like. You can talk about "cis women" being challenged in women's toilets in order to pretend that it's not always possible to tell what sex someone is. I just don't have to believe you, or even pretend to.

I got a massive talking to about "not believing women" when I challenged a poster saying there was a child identifying as a cat at school and eating from a bowl like a cat.

I also got a talking to when i said I didn't believe that schools were "transing children" without the parents knowledge.

Those scenarios are still both far less believable to me than a scenario where a woman gets mistaken for a man. Or where NGC people are mistaken for the opposite sex.

What happened to "believe women"?

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 20:44

IClaudine · 22/04/2024 20:42

Adam, you mean you are not a crazed Corbyn supporting TRA?

I am gutted.

Sorry Claudine. Sad you obviously missed the time when I said I liked Cameron 😂

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 20:45

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:39

That's not what I think at all.
I think single sex for dignity and safety. I think in the case of toilets its impractical/impossible to police so what's the point in focusing on it? And I think in purely social spaces the harm done to women (as a group) by giving men the space to exercise power without them, is greater than the benefit of women not "being compelled to believe a lie".

I have no desire to go back to Victorian times thanks. Too many women have sacrificed too much.

I mean if society/ a government told trans women that they were male, revoked the GRC so we didn't have the ridiculous notion of the female penis and actually prioritised women we could go back to the good old days where young women weren't told that they don't have the right to call out predatory males in women's toilets in case they are trans.

It's not too difficult to do that. You just don't want to because women are less important to you than trans women when it comes to toilets and I suspect because your beloved labour party think women can have a penis and you are going along with it because Labour = good.

What is going back to victorian times is putting some women on a urinary leash.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:36

It's not personal.

But anyone can say anything on the internet.

And all the women I've seen on the internet claiming to have been challenged in women's toilets by people who thought they were men, who have been silly enough to put a photo to their name, are obviously lying. They also invariably self describe as "cis" and have pronouns.

It has nothing to do with shutting down debate. If you needed to believe someone in order to debate with them, that would be problematic in all kinds of ways. We can debate all you like. You can talk about "cis women" being challenged in women's toilets in order to pretend that it's not always possible to tell what sex someone is. I just don't have to believe you, or even pretend to.

Where you trying to demonstrate Pointy's point?

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:46

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 22/04/2024 20:41

Haven't you said that you've got 2 trans kids on other threads?

If a girl goes out of their way to look like a boy, and I mean more than just short hair and trousers, there's a greater possibility that they'll be challenged in the single-sex spaces. Surely that's obvious.

Are we saying girls shouldn't wear trousers?
Is that what feminism has got to?

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:47

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 22/04/2024 20:41

Haven't you said that you've got 2 trans kids on other threads?

If a girl goes out of their way to look like a boy, and I mean more than just short hair and trousers, there's a greater possibility that they'll be challenged in the single-sex spaces. Surely that's obvious.

That throws a different light on things I suppose.

Clavinova · 22/04/2024 20:47

AdamRyan
Oh hello clav. Not seen you here before
Those aren't my words.

It's your op and you used those words as the basis of your history lesson.

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