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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:45

illinivich · 22/04/2024 19:41

Small point, but 8,242 GRC have been issued, not 5,000.

With a GRC a man can get a female birth certificate, and his orginal certificate will be hidden from the public.

The PC of GR protect those who have undergone GR, are undergoing GR and proposing to undergo GR. With a doctors note,these men can get a female passport.

Crossdressing men can get a female passport without a doctors note.

Anyone with a GRC and the PC of GR can go through a sepecial helpline when going through the dbs process to hide their sex from employers.

Any man can get a driving licence with a female name and marker.

So we have over 8,242 people with the incorrect sex on their birth certificates, but an unknown number with the PC of GR.

This does matter for single sex spaces and opportunities, because sse are legally allowed, not mandatorily. Meaning that providers can in reality decide their own definition of women. Often that mean man who has come out as trans that morning.

Women could legally challenge every case where providers advertise single sex spaces and opportunities, but we know from sport how difficult that is.

Neither party recognises any of this.

If anyone thinks this is going to get better with labour and their attitude to women and free speech are bonkers.

There are around 70 million people in the UK.
I really can't get het up about the <10,000 with a GRC.
You know that argument about how "the existence of people born with one leg doesn't mean humans aren't bipedal"? It's like that. The existence of a tiny number of people with a GRC who are legally women, doesn't mean "woman =/= adult human female".

OP posts:
JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:46

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:42

Sorry but I just don't believe the people who claim not to be able to tell what sex someone is.

So you are saying that in the examples posters have shared above people were deliberately misidentifying them? Why would someone do that?

illinivich · 22/04/2024 20:00

There are around 70 million people in the UK. I really can't get het up about the <10,000 with a GRC.

Then you dont understand the issue.

The percentage of the population with a GRC is low, but the process to help those people get a GRC help any man obtain female id and into womens spaces.

The existence of the GRA and PC of GR has allowed trans ideology into schools. Its allowed the NHS to record gender instead of sex, men in womens sport.

The GRA legitimises all of this. Without the GRA none of these things make sense.

Brefugee · 22/04/2024 20:01

Trans women could be excluded from changing rooms if the service provider wanted to do so.

In theory. In practice we know how difficult that is. See also: women's awards, all women shortlists and women's sports

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:05

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:46

So you are saying that in the examples posters have shared above people were deliberately misidentifying them? Why would someone do that?

I'm saying I am inclined not to trust anyone who says these things actually happened.

illinivich · 22/04/2024 20:06

The existence of a tiny number of people with a GRC who are legally women, doesn't mean "woman =/= adult human female".

You are being disingenuous. How many politician are willing to say only adult human females are women?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:06

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:45

There are around 70 million people in the UK.
I really can't get het up about the <10,000 with a GRC.
You know that argument about how "the existence of people born with one leg doesn't mean humans aren't bipedal"? It's like that. The existence of a tiny number of people with a GRC who are legally women, doesn't mean "woman =/= adult human female".

No, but it does mean women's spaces are now mixed sex spaces, which is a problem for many women.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:06

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:35

How exactly do you see that?

I feel sad for you that you cannot tell male people from female people (in stark contrast to the vast majority of the rest of the human race).

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:06

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:05

I'm saying I am inclined not to trust anyone who says these things actually happened.

You are saying the previous posters are liars?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:07

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:06

I feel sad for you that you cannot tell male people from female people (in stark contrast to the vast majority of the rest of the human race).

Edited

Of course she can tell. Everyone can.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:07

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:06

You are saying the previous posters are liars?

I'm saying it is something people lie about frequently.

The previous posters are just words on a screen to me. Why would I believe them more than anyone else?

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:09

pointythings · 22/04/2024 19:41

Really? Because two of my DC (the ngc ones) have been challenged in bathrooms, and I have been mistaken for a man even though I'm totally XX. 'We' clearly isn't everyone.

I am pleased to hear this. It's good to know that women are being vigilant in protecting single sex spaces and I am sure that when the misunderstanding was rectified, everyone got on with their day. As women I am sure that your daughters understood this.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:10

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:07

Of course she can tell. Everyone can.

Well except those people that previous posters in this thread wrote about.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:10

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:09

I am pleased to hear this. It's good to know that women are being vigilant in protecting single sex spaces and I am sure that when the misunderstanding was rectified, everyone got on with their day. As women I am sure that your daughters understood this.

I'm sticking it in the "didn't happen" box, along with this one.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/31/cis-woman-harassed-transphobe-female-toilet-short-hair/

Cis woman harassed by ‘transphobe’ who followed her into female toilet

A viral TikTok video has shown a cisgender woman getting confronted over her gender identity in a public toilet because she had short hair.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/31/cis-woman-harassed-transphobe-female-toilet-short-hair

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:12

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:07

Of course she can tell. Everyone can.

Indeed.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:10

I'm sticking it in the "didn't happen" box, along with this one.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/10/31/cis-woman-harassed-transphobe-female-toilet-short-hair/

I agree with you but I suppose my point is that if it DID happen then it's absolutely fine and a non issue.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:14

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:07

I'm saying it is something people lie about frequently.

The previous posters are just words on a screen to me. Why would I believe them more than anyone else?

How do you know people frequently lie about their experiences?

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:15

@pointythings you say that your daughters are 'ngc'. What does this mean in practice? Short hair? No makeup? Trousers?

Exactly the same as thousands of other women maybe?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:15

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:13

I agree with you but I suppose my point is that if it DID happen then it's absolutely fine and a non issue.

Also, if it did happen, it's a sign that women are now paranoid that there might be men in their toilets. Which is not the fault of gender critical feminists, is it?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:15

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:14

How do you know people frequently lie about their experiences?

Well I posted a link to a Pink News article above where someone is clearly lying.

NecessaryScene · 22/04/2024 20:15

How do you know people frequently lie about their experiences?

If they didn't experience it, they're not lying about their experience, they're just lying.

And that's far more common.

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:16

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:13

I agree with you but I suppose my point is that if it DID happen then it's absolutely fine and a non issue.

If it isn't a non-issue for the young adult who was misidentified what then?
Perhaps they have been bullied for years because puberty arrived much later than is typical.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 20:18

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:16

If it isn't a non-issue for the young adult who was misidentified what then?
Perhaps they have been bullied for years because puberty arrived much later than is typical.

In this entirely hypothetical scenario, perhaps birth registered males should stay out of women's toilets and then the women using them will be less paranoid and less likely to mistake a woman for a man.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 20:19

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 20:16

If it isn't a non-issue for the young adult who was misidentified what then?
Perhaps they have been bullied for years because puberty arrived much later than is typical.

Sorry bit this is just so much bullshit. It just doesn't happen because people can accurately sex other people. And wtf has a late puberty to do with it? Are you saying that a flat chested women looks like a man??

VimtoVimto · 22/04/2024 20:19

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 18:21

Re. the point of your thread.

It was enabled by the GRA which was introduced by Labour.

Made worse by the Tories.

Likely to be made worse going forward by the Labour Party than by the Tories.

HTH.

This is just supposition with no evidence either way.

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