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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 19:27

pointythings · 22/04/2024 19:05

Anyone who disagrees and has the temerity not to shut up about it. You're only allowed a view on women's rights if it's the correct view.

Tip you are not pro- women's rights if you don't put the needs of women before the wishes of males in all circumstances.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:28

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 17:50

I've yet to meet anyone that can 100% successfully identify what a woman is without being invasive or impractical.

It's an adult human of the female biological sex.

That's clear enough to anyone who isn't an idiot or pretending to be one.

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 19:29

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:23

I would like to vote for a party which knows what a woman is AND cares about them.

Which party is that, please?

There isn't one. Although The Party of Women is just getting off the ground...

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 19:29

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:09

Yeah. We are such TRAs, having the temerity to point out austerity has fucked up services for women and the government would rather send 150 judges to Rwanda than deal with the rape backlog.

You think that some single sex spaces should include men who identify as women.

You have said so several times.

The Tory government has fucked women up so will Labour if it continues to put the wishes of some men above the needs of all women.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:30

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 19:27

Tip you are not pro- women's rights if you don't put the needs of women before the wishes of males in all circumstances.

🙄
You are also not pro womens rights if you insist women are a hive mind and there is only one acceptable view for women to have.

Go and tell the men off for wrongthink for a bit instead.

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JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:30

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 19:27

It's only ever 'culture wars' when it's women fighting for their rights though isn't it? Other groups are allowed to strongly advocate for themselves and call out bullshit - but not women, no, that's divisive culture wars. 🙄

As the post quoted in the OP demonstrates fighting for women's right definetely doesn't involve the current Tory party.
Despite the number of times we get told on here that Labour don't know what a woman is.

pointythings · 22/04/2024 19:31

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:28

It's an adult human of the female biological sex.

That's clear enough to anyone who isn't an idiot or pretending to be one.

That's a definition, and it is indeed clear as glass. It doesn't however help with the issue of identifying whether someone who presents as androgynous should or should not be in a changing room or single sex toilet with you. That's where the practicalities become a problem - it's an honour system, and with such systems there will always be people, in this case predatory males, who take advantage of it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:32

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:27

You need to read my reply in the context of the quoted post:
But if you say that the Tories really don't care about women and i believe that, then what excuse will I be able to give to myself when I vote Tory again?

Knowing what a woman is, is more important than caring about them?

Vote for who you like. I'm not here to persuade you.

I just said I would like to vote for a party which both knows what a woman is and cares about them.

Why isn't Labour that party?

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 19:32

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:30

🙄
You are also not pro womens rights if you insist women are a hive mind and there is only one acceptable view for women to have.

Go and tell the men off for wrongthink for a bit instead.

I'm not telling you off Adam,

You are perfectly at liberty to be a TRA!

Go for it.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:33

Otter2 · 22/04/2024 19:29

There isn't one. Although The Party of Women is just getting off the ground...

I'm very much looking forward to what happens with Party of Women. It appears to have no policies, and a nominating officer who lives in the states, supports Trump, presents on GB News and insists he can "make anyone famous". I can't really take it very seriously. I feel for the women who have joined thinking they are part of a brave new movement though. I think they might get a shock.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:34

pointythings · 22/04/2024 19:31

That's a definition, and it is indeed clear as glass. It doesn't however help with the issue of identifying whether someone who presents as androgynous should or should not be in a changing room or single sex toilet with you. That's where the practicalities become a problem - it's an honour system, and with such systems there will always be people, in this case predatory males, who take advantage of it.

In the real world we can see whether someone is male or female regardless of whether they have a pixie cut and wear baggy jeans.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:32

I just said I would like to vote for a party which both knows what a woman is and cares about them.

Why isn't Labour that party?

I'm sure you can do your own research to find a suitable party to vote for. You and I both know the Labour position, if you don't want to vote for them don't.

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JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:34

In the real world we can see whether someone is male or female regardless of whether they have a pixie cut and wear baggy jeans.

Edited

How exactly do you see that?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:36

JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:35

How exactly do you see that?

With my eyes.

Although if they speak we can usually hear it with our ears too.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:37

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:35

I'm sure you can do your own research to find a suitable party to vote for. You and I both know the Labour position, if you don't want to vote for them don't.

You and I both know that there is no such party in the UK, leaving women without any adequate democratic representation.

I do indeed know Labour's position, which is why I can't vote for them.

What I don't understand is WHY that is their position. They're supposed to be a progressive party.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:39

lifeturnsonadime · 22/04/2024 19:29

You think that some single sex spaces should include men who identify as women.

You have said so several times.

The Tory government has fucked women up so will Labour if it continues to put the wishes of some men above the needs of all women.

That's not what I think at all.
I think single sex for dignity and safety. I think in the case of toilets its impractical/impossible to police so what's the point in focusing on it? And I think in purely social spaces the harm done to women (as a group) by giving men the space to exercise power without them, is greater than the benefit of women not "being compelled to believe a lie".

I have no desire to go back to Victorian times thanks. Too many women have sacrificed too much.

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AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:39

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:37

You and I both know that there is no such party in the UK, leaving women without any adequate democratic representation.

I do indeed know Labour's position, which is why I can't vote for them.

What I don't understand is WHY that is their position. They're supposed to be a progressive party.

You can vote for Party of Women? Or reform?

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JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:36

With my eyes.

Although if they speak we can usually hear it with our ears too.

But what is it that you are seeing?

BIossomtoes · 22/04/2024 19:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:34

In the real world we can see whether someone is male or female regardless of whether they have a pixie cut and wear baggy jeans.

Edited

We can’t actually. We encountered a police person in Berlin once, to this day neither of us have any idea which sex that person was. There were no clues. I’m sure they weren’t unique.

pointythings · 22/04/2024 19:41

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:34

In the real world we can see whether someone is male or female regardless of whether they have a pixie cut and wear baggy jeans.

Edited

Really? Because two of my DC (the ngc ones) have been challenged in bathrooms, and I have been mistaken for a man even though I'm totally XX. 'We' clearly isn't everyone.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:41

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:39

You can vote for Party of Women? Or reform?

Not in my constituency, I don't think.

illinivich · 22/04/2024 19:41

Small point, but 8,242 GRC have been issued, not 5,000.

With a GRC a man can get a female birth certificate, and his orginal certificate will be hidden from the public.

The PC of GR protect those who have undergone GR, are undergoing GR and proposing to undergo GR. With a doctors note,these men can get a female passport.

Crossdressing men can get a female passport without a doctors note.

Anyone with a GRC and the PC of GR can go through a sepecial helpline when going through the dbs process to hide their sex from employers.

Any man can get a driving licence with a female name and marker.

So we have over 8,242 people with the incorrect sex on their birth certificates, but an unknown number with the PC of GR.

This does matter for single sex spaces and opportunities, because sse are legally allowed, not mandatorily. Meaning that providers can in reality decide their own definition of women. Often that mean man who has come out as trans that morning.

Women could legally challenge every case where providers advertise single sex spaces and opportunities, but we know from sport how difficult that is.

Neither party recognises any of this.

If anyone thinks this is going to get better with labour and their attitude to women and free speech are bonkers.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 19:42

Sorry but I just don't believe the people who claim not to be able to tell what sex someone is.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 19:42

I want a government that doesn't prioritise spaffing money and judges on an unworkable policy nobody voted for, over supporting rape victims to get justice. That's why I'm comfortable with my choice to vote Labour. YMMV.

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JessS1990 · 22/04/2024 19:43

pointythings · 22/04/2024 19:41

Really? Because two of my DC (the ngc ones) have been challenged in bathrooms, and I have been mistaken for a man even though I'm totally XX. 'We' clearly isn't everyone.

I thought it was just me at times when I was younger...

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