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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:45

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 17:42

😂😂
If you haven't noticed the data demonstrating the explosion in children thinking their sex is wrong and the information evidencing where this is coming from, (sadly including some teachers, medics, civil servants, EPs and the rest) then none of us can help you. After all, if the civil service hadn't been captured, then there wouldn't need to be the hard fought for SEEN network? One finally being established in the DfE I see.

I would have thought you might have noticed something - especially as you spend so much time on this board?

Never mind. Not to worry.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-staff-networks/seen-network

Saying some teachers have influenced children is a completely different statement to saying schools are captured and transing children.

The civil service has loads of EDI groups, SEEN is just one and indicates nothing about "capture". Any more than having Pride group would indicate the civil service was homophobic. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the civil service with a whole range of views and this idea they are "captured" and incapable of doing their jobs is nonsense.

I would like to see evidence that the "explosion of trans children" is to do with public sector capture. Dr Cass didn't find that. I would think its more likely down to the Internet and social services.

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NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:45

Like i said early, if you don't back Labour, you'll get another Tory govt and all that means for women.

We're getting conflicting messages from people on MN:

a. 'Single issue' voters are few and far between; most people care more about other things / don't care about women's sex-based rights so won't vote taking them into account.

b. Labour are set for a landslide victory and the Tories will be annihilated.

c. Despite the fact that (apparently) so few people will vote on the issue of women's sex-based rights, those few people not voting for Labour will lead to another Tory government.

Why so concerned, given how often we're told that a and b are true?

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:47

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 19:06

Still no answer to Adam to my post asking reasonable questions regarding their beliefs on whether girls should have single sex toilets in schools.

I find the questions that are not answered as interesting as the ones which are.

Yes of course they should. In fact I believe that is the law. HTH - now maybe you can stop asking me questions about toilets.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:49

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:09

I think the people who report loads clearly have that aim in mind, yes. But hide behind 'MNHQ encourage reporting'. It's very schoolyard snitching though, isn't it?

No. Its the only way I can engage and not lose my temper with the persistent lying, goading and insults.
I didn't used to report and nearly got banned. Life is much better for me now I do. I would encourage anyone to do the same.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:50

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 19:14

This is a very odd view. You prioritise rape prosecutions but yet are in favour of allowing any random male who says their a female into places where females are vulnerable such as toilets. Have you not heard of Katie Dolatowskie, a transgender woman assaulting and trying to rape a young girl in a Morrison’s toilet? Karen White perhaps? Barbie Kardashian? Andrew Scott, who was Scotland’s most dangerous prisoner almost being allowed to transfer to Cornton Vale? The Louden County rapes? What about the women inmates in the USA being locked up in cells with convicted rapists, who then coerce the women into sex and impregnate them? What a completely nonsensical position to take, you want to prosecute rapists at the same time as giving males easier access to females when we are at our most vulnerable? Unbelievable! This seems like a whole lot of I don’t really give a fuck but saying my priority is prosecuting rapists makes me look good. Have you actually thought this through Adam? It doesn’t seem like it.

Again, that is not my view so you are tilting at a straw man.

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NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:52

This reply has been deleted

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:52

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 19:20

Mordaunt does not have a chance. Badenoch is far more popular with Tory voters (if they are allowed to vote for her next time they elect a new leader).

Tory members are the reason they are in this mess imo. There are barely any of them and they appear out of touch with real life. Good luck to the Conservatives if they get Badenoch as leader.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:55

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NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:57

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FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 20:00

Feel it is worth saying, for the avoidance of doubt, I want to vote Labour. I have done so in every election for at least the last two decades and if it wasn't for this I absolutely would this time. I keep hoping they will do or say something that means I can trust them again. Far from looking for an excuse to vote Tory, I'm worried my desire for Labour to come back to me means I'll persuade myself to be over optimistic about them.

And to be very clear, the "this" I can't get past is not that Labour being kind or supportive to trans people. It's that Labour's behaviour and doublespeak shows that the party today, as it did under Corbyn, is allowing a theory about how the world works to dictate how they allow themselves to perceive reality, and any aspect of reality that doesn't fit that theory, in this case the reality that being female in our society still has physical and social challenges and sometimes we need to exclude males to be fair to females, they feel morally justified in ignoring or actively treating as a threat to be quashed rather than a signal that the theory may not in fact work in practice.

My local Labour MP has strong principles but was always driven firstly by an understanding of the real world challenges their constituents face. I'm gutted they are one of the ones who are now ignoring the reality of women's experiences of sexism in favour of a model idea of mental womanhood.

And yes, the Tories are just as bad in the way they apply market based theories and I'm not going to vote for them either.

I want my politicians to have principles, the belief that the world can be better and the chutzpah to try to do it, but also the clear sightedness to see the world as it is not as their theories tell them it is.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:01

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:47

Yes of course they should. In fact I believe that is the law. HTH - now maybe you can stop asking me questions about toilets.

So it's easy in schools but not anywhere else?

Do you think schools have teachers at hand to act as toilet monitors?

How can this be policed?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:02

@FlirtsWithRhinos I want to vote Labour too but have been called a liar for saying that before now.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 20:02

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:02

@FlirtsWithRhinos I want to vote Labour too but have been called a liar for saying that before now.

Same, same.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 20:05

Oh what a surprise, we’re back at toilets again. It’s like a fetish round here.

Clavinova · 25/04/2024 20:06

AdamRyan · 23/04/2024 23:55

It's not quite the sane as attending various pro-Trump, MAGA type conferences with the likes of Orban, and Meloni, as well as various far right "personalities" who've expressed anti-gay, racist and fascist sentiments, no.

Liz Truss was very positive towards Steve Bannon at CPAC, when Bannon said Tommy Robinson was a hero, for example.

Edited

I thought Liz Truss was criticised for 'remaining silent' when Tommy Robinson was mentioned - that's not the same as being 'very positive'.

At the 'progressive international leaders' summit, Keir Starmer was linked (in the article) to the leaders/former leaders of Canada, New Zealand, Norway and Finland. I see that all four countries have recently been removed from the Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories) schedule:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2024/401/schedule/made

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1630/schedule/made

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 20:07

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 19:34

Do most rapes take place in toilets or in homes where the perpetrator is known to the victim?

Rape and sexual assaults often take place where a man can isolate a woman. So at home, yes. But the point of communal women-only toilet provision is to minimise the the risk to the woman or girl when she is vulnerable to attack (she has taken of some of clothes and is alone).

That's why it's so harmful to allow men who claim to be women (MCW) to use women's toilets. For any man, claiming a trans identity is the ticket to get in. It doesn't take much imagination to realise that any man with nefarious intent, whether he claims to be woman in any other circumstances or not, can use trans "ticket" to get into the loos and attack women. I think the right of women not to be sexually assaulted by a man in a the women's toilets trumps the wishes of MCW to use said toilets. There are toilets for men. I think they should use those.

Real world example:
A 10-year-old girl is followed into the toilet by a MCW. She is threatened and sexually assaulted in a cubicle. Her father is waiting for her outside the toilets area. He sees the MCW going into the women's loos but doesn't think he can challenge him. That's the Katie Dolatowski case.
If everyone accepted, as we used to until very recently, that women's toilets are for women and girls, men's toilets are for men and boys, then men - whether they claim to be women or not, could be challenged. I'm sure you've heard this saying before: "Good men stay out so bad men stand out."

So yes, you may be right about more rapes happening in domestic settings. But I think rape and sexual assault are sufficiently heinous crimes to want to reduce their incidence as much as possible. MCW do not have a right to use women's single-sex spaces because women have a right to privacy, dignity and safety.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:07

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 20:05

Oh what a surprise, we’re back at toilets again. It’s like a fetish round here.

Edited

No it's essential for some women to have access to single sex toilets to go about normal life.

The only time fetish becomes an issue is when some males wish to gain access to women's toilets to engage in their fetish. Women should not have to be unwilling participants in that.

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 20:13

Adam why did you get my post deleted? Because I said that you are good at mansplaining? Seriously?

I rather think that it is a very good way to describe your posting style.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 20:16

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 20:13

Adam why did you get my post deleted? Because I said that you are good at mansplaining? Seriously?

I rather think that it is a very good way to describe your posting style.

Edited

I don't think that was me.

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Otter2 · 25/04/2024 20:17

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:02

@FlirtsWithRhinos I want to vote Labour too but have been called a liar for saying that before now.

Me too. I am actually a raging Tory Trump loving bigot...or something...

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:18

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 20:13

Adam why did you get my post deleted? Because I said that you are good at mansplaining? Seriously?

I rather think that it is a very good way to describe your posting style.

Edited

Yet Blossom can imply that we're (or more specifically that I'm) a fetishists for wanting women to have single sex public toilets so that religious minority women and sexual assault survivors can engage in public life and that post is standing.

Clavinova · 25/04/2024 20:26

AdamRyan

With regards to the discussion on manifesto commitments and trust, do you think Labour would have reneged on their 2019 and 2017 pledges had they gained power?

(2019) Labour is committed to reforming the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to introduce self-declaration for transgender people.

(2017) A Labour government will reform the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act 2010 to ensure they protect Trans people by changing the protected characteristic of ‘gender assignment’ to ‘gender identity’...

On previous threads, both you and BIossomtoes have expressed the belief/hope that Keir Starmer is more left-wing and more pro-EU than he is letting on - doesn't that rather contradict your claim that Keir Starmer can be trusted? If you think/hope he is misleading voters in some policy areas, why not on this one?

(I also recall that Labour's 2005 manifesto promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty but that promise wasn't kept).

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 20:26

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 20:07

Rape and sexual assaults often take place where a man can isolate a woman. So at home, yes. But the point of communal women-only toilet provision is to minimise the the risk to the woman or girl when she is vulnerable to attack (she has taken of some of clothes and is alone).

That's why it's so harmful to allow men who claim to be women (MCW) to use women's toilets. For any man, claiming a trans identity is the ticket to get in. It doesn't take much imagination to realise that any man with nefarious intent, whether he claims to be woman in any other circumstances or not, can use trans "ticket" to get into the loos and attack women. I think the right of women not to be sexually assaulted by a man in a the women's toilets trumps the wishes of MCW to use said toilets. There are toilets for men. I think they should use those.

Real world example:
A 10-year-old girl is followed into the toilet by a MCW. She is threatened and sexually assaulted in a cubicle. Her father is waiting for her outside the toilets area. He sees the MCW going into the women's loos but doesn't think he can challenge him. That's the Katie Dolatowski case.
If everyone accepted, as we used to until very recently, that women's toilets are for women and girls, men's toilets are for men and boys, then men - whether they claim to be women or not, could be challenged. I'm sure you've heard this saying before: "Good men stay out so bad men stand out."

So yes, you may be right about more rapes happening in domestic settings. But I think rape and sexual assault are sufficiently heinous crimes to want to reduce their incidence as much as possible. MCW do not have a right to use women's single-sex spaces because women have a right to privacy, dignity and safety.

If we were under a risk of self-ID I would agree.

Because we aren't, this argument is very much reduced.

I think Katie Dolatowski is a red herring in this regard. That person is a paedophile, and also, and a man identifying as female. I don't think stopping TW accessing the ladies would have stopped him being a child abuser or even assaulting that child.

Also the victims family thought Dolatowski was a man so you aren't quite right that they didn't challenge him because they thought Dolatowski was a TW.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6814599/amp/Transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-Morrisons-female-toilets.html

Dolatowski, who identifies as a woman but was believed by the victim's family to be a man, threatened to stab the girl's mother and made her take off her trousers in the Kirkcaldy supermarket.

Transgender woman sexually assaulted girl, 10, in Morrisons' toilets

A transgender woman has sexually assaulted a girl, ten, in a female toilet cubicle in a Morrisons in Kirkcaldy, Fife. Weeks earlier, Katie Dolatowski spied on another girl in an Asda toilet in Halbeath.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6814599/amp/Transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-Morrisons-female-toilets.html

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 20:27

Interesting how urban myths spread though

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 20:30

Adam your last 2 posts are disgusting. Of course they thought he was a man. He's 6 foot odd and looks like a man. Albeit a man wearing women's clothes.

Trans women look like men because and are believed to be men because ..... join the dots.

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