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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

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BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 21:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 21:16

Jess,

If you are still around, I would be interested in your response to my post about rape/sexual assault in toilets. (If you don't wish to respond, let me know.)
Thanks.

Clavinova · 25/04/2024 21:18

next tory leader

The Paddy Power list up thread doesn't name Robert Jenrick at all (out of 30 plus names) - which is surprising as I would probably place him top 5/6.

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 21:24

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 21:01

My goodness, that really is a stretch. They sound like incels to me.

Please elaborate. Do you regard 5000 victims trivial? Or do you regard voyeurism as just a bit of fun rather than a gateway crime?
And incel just means pathetic not misogyny and a red flag for violence?

A gang of voyeurs hid in mixed gender changing rooms at swimming pools to secretly film more than 5,000 young women undressing, a court heard.

Adam Dennis, 39, and Robert Morgan, 33, “hunted” for teenage girls and made catalogues of their pictures to share and trade online.

Dennis made “profile documents” of his victims using social media and swimming pool club records, the court heard.

Inner London Crown Court heard the gang operated at pools in East London and Surrey for more than four years between April 2013 and November 2017.

Miguel Jose Sainz and Declan Golden, who police believe are also part of the gang, are still being sought in connection with the case.

Morgan, of Hammersmith, west London, and Dennis, of Littlehampton, West Sussex, both admitted voyeurism and making indecent photos.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 21:29

I didn’t mention triviality, did I? My comment was on your blaming disgraceful male behaviour on “blurring the lines”.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 21:37

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 21:29

I didn’t mention triviality, did I? My comment was on your blaming disgraceful male behaviour on “blurring the lines”.

That you can't or won't see removing single sex spaces as enabling 'disgraceful male behaviour' is baffling?

Do you think that trans women are not males Blossom?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 21:45

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 21:29

I didn’t mention triviality, did I? My comment was on your blaming disgraceful male behaviour on “blurring the lines”.

Blurring the lines isn't what made those men who they are but it is what put them in the same changing room as the girls they preyed on.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:01

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 21:14

You just said that rape prosecutions were your priority while at the same time defending men in places where women are vulnerable or in a state of undress. Those are conflicting aims. How is that not odd? Your not quite as clever as you think you are.

defending men in places where women are vulnerable or in a state of undress

I didn't do that, so again straw man

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:03

Clavinova · 25/04/2024 21:18

next tory leader

The Paddy Power list up thread doesn't name Robert Jenrick at all (out of 30 plus names) - which is surprising as I would probably place him top 5/6.

He shot his load when he demanded murals for children in detention centres were painted over so as not to be "too welcoming". Because traumatised children should know their place.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:04

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:01

defending men in places where women are vulnerable or in a state of undress

I didn't do that, so again straw man

What do you mean then?

Do you mean that you think Trans women are women, that they are not men so you are not defending the right of men to be there because trans women are not men?

Or do you mean that you think that trans women have no place in women's changing rooms or women's toilets where we are vulnerable to predatory men?

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:04

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 21:24

Please elaborate. Do you regard 5000 victims trivial? Or do you regard voyeurism as just a bit of fun rather than a gateway crime?
And incel just means pathetic not misogyny and a red flag for violence?

A gang of voyeurs hid in mixed gender changing rooms at swimming pools to secretly film more than 5,000 young women undressing, a court heard.

Adam Dennis, 39, and Robert Morgan, 33, “hunted” for teenage girls and made catalogues of their pictures to share and trade online.

Dennis made “profile documents” of his victims using social media and swimming pool club records, the court heard.

Inner London Crown Court heard the gang operated at pools in East London and Surrey for more than four years between April 2013 and November 2017.

Miguel Jose Sainz and Declan Golden, who police believe are also part of the gang, are still being sought in connection with the case.

Morgan, of Hammersmith, west London, and Dennis, of Littlehampton, West Sussex, both admitted voyeurism and making indecent photos.

Voyeurs are awful and why I wouldn't support self ID or mixed sex changing rooms.

However these men weren't trans so it's not very relevant.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:05

A lot of men are basically disgusting to be honest. But we have to coexist with them.

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Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 22:06

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 21:29

I didn’t mention triviality, did I? My comment was on your blaming disgraceful male behaviour on “blurring the lines”.

OK so this is 'disgraceful male behaviour' not criminal, not misogyny, ' boys will be boys. What can you do?

Well you can organise society in such a way that prevents and punishes that behaviour. You set clear boundaries to restrains men and protect the privacy, dignity and safety of women. You do so in the expectation of this kind of behaviour.

Or do you have another solution?

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:06

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:04

What do you mean then?

Do you mean that you think Trans women are women, that they are not men so you are not defending the right of men to be there because trans women are not men?

Or do you mean that you think that trans women have no place in women's changing rooms or women's toilets where we are vulnerable to predatory men?

Edited

Again, putting words in my mouth. I have no interest in explaining what I mean because you seemingly can't retain it and revert back to your own view of what you think is in my head.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:08

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:04

Voyeurs are awful and why I wouldn't support self ID or mixed sex changing rooms.

However these men weren't trans so it's not very relevant.

So you think trans women are not men?

I have raised the issue of the fact that we have self id because we have no requirements for anyone to do anything other than say they are trans before they can enter women's single sex spaces.

The fact that men who are voyeurs are enabled to be in women's single sex spaces to do their voyeurism (which you admit is awful) is precisely because we have de facto self ID and women can't ask any male to leave because the assumption is that we should be OK with any male being in a woman's single sex space in case he identifies as a woman.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:09

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:06

Again, putting words in my mouth. I have no interest in explaining what I mean because you seemingly can't retain it and revert back to your own view of what you think is in my head.

I'm not putting words into your mouth I'm asking what you mean.
If you don't mean those things you can say so, I'm literally inviting you to do that.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:10

However these men weren't trans so it's not very relevant.

How do we tell which men in women's spaces are trans and which aren't? Seeing as all men have to say is 'I'm a woman' to 'become' trans.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:10

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:08

So you think trans women are not men?

I have raised the issue of the fact that we have self id because we have no requirements for anyone to do anything other than say they are trans before they can enter women's single sex spaces.

The fact that men who are voyeurs are enabled to be in women's single sex spaces to do their voyeurism (which you admit is awful) is precisely because we have de facto self ID and women can't ask any male to leave because the assumption is that we should be OK with any male being in a woman's single sex space in case he identifies as a woman.

It's like a venn diagram. All trans women are men. But not all men are trans women.

Unless you are arguing for taliban-esque style segregation of men and women this case is irrelevant. This was male sex offenders doing what male sex offenders do in a unisex space.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:10

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:05

A lot of men are basically disgusting to be honest. But we have to coexist with them.

Even more so now that we have to accept them everywhere in case they identify as trans.

We have to coexist with men, what we don't have to do is accept they are women.

We also do not have to give them licence to be in what used to be single sex spaces because they demand it.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:12

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:10

However these men weren't trans so it's not very relevant.

How do we tell which men in women's spaces are trans and which aren't? Seeing as all men have to say is 'I'm a woman' to 'become' trans.

So boring. Trans women in womens spaces are making an effort to blend in/pass. Men are rocking up au natural.
It is irrelevant. I want single sex spaces. I don't think for toilets it's practical or possible. I'm pragmatic about it.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:12

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:10

It's like a venn diagram. All trans women are men. But not all men are trans women.

Unless you are arguing for taliban-esque style segregation of men and women this case is irrelevant. This was male sex offenders doing what male sex offenders do in a unisex space.

So for adam normal safeguarding principles means - taliban-esque style segregation

If women want single sex spaces that is what we are asking for.

FFS.

This is so offensive.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:13

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:12

So boring. Trans women in womens spaces are making an effort to blend in/pass. Men are rocking up au natural.
It is irrelevant. I want single sex spaces. I don't think for toilets it's practical or possible. I'm pragmatic about it.

So to go back to schools how do we achieve that there so our girls can be educated appropriately?

Why can't we adopt the same principles elsewhere?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:14

Or why can't we just ask all men (transwomen) to stay the fuck out so that we can identify which males are predatory because they wouldn't be there if they weren't?

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:18

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:12

So boring. Trans women in womens spaces are making an effort to blend in/pass. Men are rocking up au natural.
It is irrelevant. I want single sex spaces. I don't think for toilets it's practical or possible. I'm pragmatic about it.

Nope, that doesn't always happen. You're being disingenuous to suggest that all transwomen try to pass (and that non-genuine transwomen wouldn't dress up to try to pass as a transwoman).

It is also not irrelevant or boring to try to work this out. You being accepting of men in women's spaces does not mean it should be allowed to happen. Our sex based rights are not yours to give away.

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 22:18

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:04

Voyeurs are awful and why I wouldn't support self ID or mixed sex changing rooms.

However these men weren't trans so it's not very relevant.

You've just jumped the shark.

Transwomen have the same propensity to commit crime, sex offending and violence as other men.

Once you open women's spaces to transwomen you are opening them to that same risk.
Another awkward fact is that the most common paraphilia of sex offenders is cross dressing.

Basically you claim to want prosecute crimes against women but have no interest in prevention. Funny position for a feminist.

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