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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Mavenss · 25/04/2024 22:20

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:12

So for adam normal safeguarding principles means - taliban-esque style segregation

If women want single sex spaces that is what we are asking for.

FFS.

This is so offensive.

I’m glad you said that, and that it’s not just me who thought so. I reported it.

Some of the comments on this thread are unreal.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:22

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:18

Nope, that doesn't always happen. You're being disingenuous to suggest that all transwomen try to pass (and that non-genuine transwomen wouldn't dress up to try to pass as a transwoman).

It is also not irrelevant or boring to try to work this out. You being accepting of men in women's spaces does not mean it should be allowed to happen. Our sex based rights are not yours to give away.

People keep saying this and I don't understand what the point is.
We live in a democracy. Our option is to vote for the party we want. My vote is as valid as yours (and both our votes are as valid as people who think dartmoor should be bordered with pickled onions).

I'm not "giving away your sex based rights". At most I'm exercising my own right to vote. You are being hyperbolic. I don't know why.

OP posts:
NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:25

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:22

People keep saying this and I don't understand what the point is.
We live in a democracy. Our option is to vote for the party we want. My vote is as valid as yours (and both our votes are as valid as people who think dartmoor should be bordered with pickled onions).

I'm not "giving away your sex based rights". At most I'm exercising my own right to vote. You are being hyperbolic. I don't know why.

You saying you're accepting of men in the ladies is nodding away our right to single sex spaces. In order to keep men out, we should be vociferously opposing them being in there, not going 🤷‍♀️ 'Well...what can we doooooooo?'

They can be kept out. They have been previously. Saying we can't keep them out allows them all in. Acceptance doesn't help the single sex space cause.

I am not being hyperbolic. Stop misrepresenting me. Again.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:25

So transwomen who make an effort to 'blend in' (whatever the fuck that means) can't possibly be harmful. Because they've made an effort to blend in. So they are exempt.

Is that really where we're at?

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:26

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:12

So for adam normal safeguarding principles means - taliban-esque style segregation

If women want single sex spaces that is what we are asking for.

FFS.

This is so offensive.

Straw man

OP posts:
NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:26

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:25

So transwomen who make an effort to 'blend in' (whatever the fuck that means) can't possibly be harmful. Because they've made an effort to blend in. So they are exempt.

Is that really where we're at?

Well. The people who seemingly don't understand the bigger picture are, yes.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:27

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:25

You saying you're accepting of men in the ladies is nodding away our right to single sex spaces. In order to keep men out, we should be vociferously opposing them being in there, not going 🤷‍♀️ 'Well...what can we doooooooo?'

They can be kept out. They have been previously. Saying we can't keep them out allows them all in. Acceptance doesn't help the single sex space cause.

I am not being hyperbolic. Stop misrepresenting me. Again.

You are, but I don't think its intentional.

When do you think TW were kept out? What is your evidence for this?

OP posts:
BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:29

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 21:45

Blurring the lines isn't what made those men who they are but it is what put them in the same changing room as the girls they preyed on.

Edited

It really isn’t. In fact if anything it’s an excuse.

LaLoba · 25/04/2024 22:29

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 20:00

Feel it is worth saying, for the avoidance of doubt, I want to vote Labour. I have done so in every election for at least the last two decades and if it wasn't for this I absolutely would this time. I keep hoping they will do or say something that means I can trust them again. Far from looking for an excuse to vote Tory, I'm worried my desire for Labour to come back to me means I'll persuade myself to be over optimistic about them.

And to be very clear, the "this" I can't get past is not that Labour being kind or supportive to trans people. It's that Labour's behaviour and doublespeak shows that the party today, as it did under Corbyn, is allowing a theory about how the world works to dictate how they allow themselves to perceive reality, and any aspect of reality that doesn't fit that theory, in this case the reality that being female in our society still has physical and social challenges and sometimes we need to exclude males to be fair to females, they feel morally justified in ignoring or actively treating as a threat to be quashed rather than a signal that the theory may not in fact work in practice.

My local Labour MP has strong principles but was always driven firstly by an understanding of the real world challenges their constituents face. I'm gutted they are one of the ones who are now ignoring the reality of women's experiences of sexism in favour of a model idea of mental womanhood.

And yes, the Tories are just as bad in the way they apply market based theories and I'm not going to vote for them either.

I want my politicians to have principles, the belief that the world can be better and the chutzpah to try to do it, but also the clear sightedness to see the world as it is not as their theories tell them it is.

Thank you for articulating so well how I feel. I’m a lifelong Labour voter, aside from local elections where our independent councillors have done a great deal to improve our community.
It’s not a culture war/ single issue for me, those that dismiss it as such clearly don’t care about the safety, rights and dignity of women, or the safeguarding of children.
Thanks again, I may save this post for the next time I’m being told to be kind.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:30

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:26

Straw man

Stop gaslighting Adam.

You used the term taliban -style segregation about women saying we need single sex spaces for safety and dignity.

That's vile. Completely abhorrent.

I can't say what I think you are when you make such comments because you will report me because you are offended. Yet you come out with such vile and offensive comments.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:30

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:25

So transwomen who make an effort to 'blend in' (whatever the fuck that means) can't possibly be harmful. Because they've made an effort to blend in. So they are exempt.

Is that really where we're at?

No. Straw man.

OP posts:
AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:30

No. Straw man.

👍

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:32

Operation let them speak I think.

Keep going Adam and Blossom, your contempt for women is showing loud and clear.

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 22:32

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:22

People keep saying this and I don't understand what the point is.
We live in a democracy. Our option is to vote for the party we want. My vote is as valid as yours (and both our votes are as valid as people who think dartmoor should be bordered with pickled onions).

I'm not "giving away your sex based rights". At most I'm exercising my own right to vote. You are being hyperbolic. I don't know why.

No one is being hyperbolic. You said earlier that you believe in single sex toilets in schools. And yet you have no qualms about young teenage girls sharing unsupervised public toilets with grown men.

This is a recent problem caused by the GRA passed by Labour introducing the concept of legal sex. It can be changed.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:32

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:29

It really isn’t. In fact if anything it’s an excuse.

Quite.
Male behaviour (as usual) gets overlooked in favour of "oh it's just those other men, it's Not All Men"

OP posts:
NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:33

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 22:27

You are, but I don't think its intentional.

When do you think TW were kept out? What is your evidence for this?

Stop being patronising, Adam.

You saying you don't get it, therefore it's hyperbolic, is faux naivety at best.

Transwomen very rarely pass, particularly in close quarters. Before men could just say they were women and have carte blanche to enter women's spaces, you could (and did) tell men to get out of the ladies. Now it's not possible or acceptable to do this. We're back to the social contract, which is now broken.

But fine, you accept men in the ladies. You just shrug at all the women this excludes because they can't use mixed sex spaces.

Letting them into loos lets them into every woman's space. You don't want them in changing rooms, but by accepting them in loos, you open the door to all single sex spaces.

I don't think you realise how naive you're being and really quite clueless.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:34

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:32

Operation let them speak I think.

Keep going Adam and Blossom, your contempt for women is showing loud and clear.

It's so predictable it's borderline boring now.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:35

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:33

Stop being patronising, Adam.

You saying you don't get it, therefore it's hyperbolic, is faux naivety at best.

Transwomen very rarely pass, particularly in close quarters. Before men could just say they were women and have carte blanche to enter women's spaces, you could (and did) tell men to get out of the ladies. Now it's not possible or acceptable to do this. We're back to the social contract, which is now broken.

But fine, you accept men in the ladies. You just shrug at all the women this excludes because they can't use mixed sex spaces.

Letting them into loos lets them into every woman's space. You don't want them in changing rooms, but by accepting them in loos, you open the door to all single sex spaces.

I don't think you realise how naive you're being and really quite clueless.

I agree with all of this except your last sentence.

Adam is anything but naive and clueless. Adam knows exactly what they are doing.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:37

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:34

It's so predictable it's borderline boring now.

It’s been very, very boring for some time. The same old points round and round and round. Constant riffs about toilets. Anyone who’s only borderline bored has a very high boredom threshold.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:37

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 22:35

I agree with all of this except your last sentence.

Adam is anything but naive and clueless. Adam knows exactly what they are doing.

I'm trying to avoid deletion...(and playing turn the patronising tables!).

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:38

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:37

It’s been very, very boring for some time. The same old points round and round and round. Constant riffs about toilets. Anyone who’s only borderline bored has a very high boredom threshold.

Nobody is making you stay. Try hiding the thread.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 22:39

It’s been very, very boring for some time. The same old points round and round and round. Constant riffs about toilets. Anyone who’s only borderline bored has a very high boredom threshold.

With a bit of irony thrown in for good measure!

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:39

Is the latest tactic referring to people who don’t agree as “they”? Adam and I are both women - she or her work.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:40

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 22:38

Nobody is making you stay. Try hiding the thread.

Oh no, you don’t get to do that. You’re not bullying me off the thread.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 22:42

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 22:37

It’s been very, very boring for some time. The same old points round and round and round. Constant riffs about toilets. Anyone who’s only borderline bored has a very high boredom threshold.

Has there been any opposition to the statements of fact set out in the OP?
Or are we getting to the end of the thread with all in agreement with the OP?

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