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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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20
Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 18:20

Would you buy a used car from this man?

This is fascinating Keir Starmer talks about female sports category without mentioning the words “women”or “girls” once…

twitter.com/MrsNickyClark/status/1782513016300326967?t=m30Wtijit5Bf7PRCAVpt_Q&s=19

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 18:21

I’ll see your Lammy, Nandy, Rayner, Butler and Dodds and give you Mordaunt, Nokes, May, Wallace, Tugendhat, Walker, Buckland and Jamie Wallace (who likes being called she). Mordaunt is tipped among Tory membership to be the next leader, by the way. It’s not looking great for you with any government.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 18:25

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 18:21

I’ll see your Lammy, Nandy, Rayner, Butler and Dodds and give you Mordaunt, Nokes, May, Wallace, Tugendhat, Walker, Buckland and Jamie Wallace (who likes being called she). Mordaunt is tipped among Tory membership to be the next leader, by the way. It’s not looking great for you with any government.

"You"?

You mean "women"?

Not sure why you're so gleeful about it.

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 18:28

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 18:25

"You"?

You mean "women"?

Not sure why you're so gleeful about it.

I’m not gleeful at all, no idea why you should think that. And I don’t mean “women” because you don’t speak for me or the thousands of other women who don’t share your views. Incidentally I’m not they/them, I’m she/her if anyone makes reference to me again.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 18:32

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 18:28

I’m not gleeful at all, no idea why you should think that. And I don’t mean “women” because you don’t speak for me or the thousands of other women who don’t share your views. Incidentally I’m not they/them, I’m she/her if anyone makes reference to me again.

Well "women" is the group of people it's not good news for, isn't it?

If someone like Penny Mordaunt becomes leader then there will essentially be no political party in the UK led by someone who believes women should be allowed to define themselves according to sex, not stereotypes, and all that goes with that. Not a single party led by someone who believes we should be able to say, "No, you can't identify as one of us."

That's a problem for all women regardless of whether you personally think it's a problem for you or not.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 18:37

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:29

No I haven't ever said "those things don't bother me".

I've said I personally don't care about using a public toilet if a TW is in there. You can extrapolate precisely nothing about my "world view" from that statement.

This is why it's fruitless. I haven't said the things you accuse me of. I don't think the things you accuse me of. I say it every time we are on a thread together and you persist with the long mischaracterisations. I don't know what the motivation is but I'm not engaging in your drama triangle.

Thank you for your participation in the GC tactic “let them speak” we really do appreciate being patted on the head and told to “calm down dear” you should still vote for the Labour Party, even though our glorious leader said that it was wrong to say that only women have a cervix. Even though members of the Labour Party threaten to beat up other members for criticising our adherence to the trans agenda. Even though we are so scared of history repeating itself that we have once again denied the GC women’s group a stall at our conference. Even though we have threatened to throw them out of the party. Even though, in Wales, we are doing our damndest to erase women completely. Even though in Scotland we voted for the GRR and the dreadful Hate Crime Laws that were put in place specifically to silence GC women. If you are indeed a natal woman, you are doing a brilliant impersonation of mansplaining, you might want to think about that Adam.

duc748 · 25/04/2024 18:41

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 18:32

Well "women" is the group of people it's not good news for, isn't it?

If someone like Penny Mordaunt becomes leader then there will essentially be no political party in the UK led by someone who believes women should be allowed to define themselves according to sex, not stereotypes, and all that goes with that. Not a single party led by someone who believes we should be able to say, "No, you can't identify as one of us."

That's a problem for all women regardless of whether you personally think it's a problem for you or not.

I wouldn't discount Cameron, myself.

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BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 18:47

Only a member of the Commons can be PM so Cameron would have to resign his title - the one he was given to allow him to be Foreign Secretary - and get elected in a constituency. I really can’t see him going to all that trouble, even if he had a hope of getting elected. Too much baggage.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 18:53

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 17:13

bigcoatlady

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not trying to give legal advice, but as I understand it, Haldane doesn't change the fact that in provision of dv refuges, any male can be excluded from a women-only service, even if they have a GRC. The Haldane judgement says that sex in the EA is bio sex + legal sex, except where the Act specifically says it isn't. But if the exceptions in the EA are invoked for the aim of protecting the dignity, privacy and safety of women (which are all human rights), then the presumption that males with a GRC will be counted as women is trumped. DV refuges, rape crisis centres, communal toilets and changing rooms fall under this exception. Men who claim to be women can be excluded from these services/facilities as a proportionate means to a legitimate aim (of securing women's privacy. dignity and safety). The Inner House, which reviewed Haldane's judgement, confirmed that this is still the case in sections 54-59 of their judgement. There's no contradiction between the English and Scottish interpretations in this specific area.

Even if your funding is conditional on providing shelter to males with a GRC as well, you don't have to do it in the same building.

I appreciate that that wouldn't help if a GRC-wielding male wanted to sue you, but the law would be on your side.

Snowy thanks I'll take another look at the judgement in the light of this comment.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 18:57

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 17:43

They don't always warn, often they just delete. I've only found out about deletions on here when I've clicked on the 'you've been thanked' link and the relevant post has gone.

It must depend on how severe MNHQ thinks the rule breach is. I think it's 3 deletions with warnings, not just 3 deletions, as I've seen people on this thread who've had more than 3 deletions in one thread before.

i've had another post deleted. I have no idea what it said.

I've been a good girl since my previous warning so I think that this time it might have been for calling a man a man.

Someone on this thread wants to get me banned.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 19:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 18:05

We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act.

Ah. So as expected they just mean they will protect the theoretical right of providers to offer single sex spaces but do nothing to stop TRAs effectively making this impractical in practice, and give women, the people who actually need the resources, no legal power or right in the matter at all.

Let's be very clear, this "right" is just the right of providers who meet the exemption to voluntarily offer single biological sex provisions. It is not an obligation to do so. And without that obligation it is in no way a right of people to single sex provisions.

Yes and bear in mind we have individuals like RMW and his legal team of men hell bent on denying women the right to such spaces even in rape crisis centres.

Are providers really going to want to take the chance of litigation?

Stonewall have already misrepresented the law. Now if they opt to make spaces single sex they risk litigation.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 19:06

Still no answer to Adam to my post asking reasonable questions regarding their beliefs on whether girls should have single sex toilets in schools.

I find the questions that are not answered as interesting as the ones which are.

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:09

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 18:57

i've had another post deleted. I have no idea what it said.

I've been a good girl since my previous warning so I think that this time it might have been for calling a man a man.

Someone on this thread wants to get me banned.

I think the people who report loads clearly have that aim in mind, yes. But hide behind 'MNHQ encourage reporting'. It's very schoolyard snitching though, isn't it?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 19:09

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:07

This Sex Matters analysis is useful.

Great thanks I'll get a chance to look at that properly tomorrow.

The reality though is that as you pointed out even if there is a theoretical right which providers are going to want to take the risk.

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 19:11

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:18

I am saying that I believe there are a minority of posters here pushing a political agenda rather than being concerned about women's rights.

I don't believe I have to apologise for stating an opinion, no matter how much you twist my words to justify your hurt feelings.

Just catching up again but this made me laugh quite a lot. Not much self awareness have you Adam?

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 19:13

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 19:09

Great thanks I'll get a chance to look at that properly tomorrow.

The reality though is that as you pointed out even if there is a theoretical right which providers are going to want to take the risk.

For Women Scotland were granted permission to take the issue to the Supreme Court. Here's the latest update from just over a month ago.

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role
Dineasair · 25/04/2024 19:14

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:32

Pointing out that Russia and other bad actors will exploit issues like this to undermine democracy isn't saying women are being controlled. It's saying that not everyone who appears to share your view is trying to get to the same outcome.

another is that we should ignore our own needs in favour of men and consider other issues more important. Noone has said this. Do what you like but equally don't demand other women do what you want them to and call them names when they don't comply with you.

I am entitled to prioritise rape prosecution rates over trans women in toilets.

Bigcoat is entitled to prioritise funding for refuges over excluding trans women from those services

Etc etc.

People are allowed different opinions

This is a very odd view. You prioritise rape prosecutions but yet are in favour of allowing any random male who says their a female into places where females are vulnerable such as toilets. Have you not heard of Katie Dolatowskie, a transgender woman assaulting and trying to rape a young girl in a Morrison’s toilet? Karen White perhaps? Barbie Kardashian? Andrew Scott, who was Scotland’s most dangerous prisoner almost being allowed to transfer to Cornton Vale? The Louden County rapes? What about the women inmates in the USA being locked up in cells with convicted rapists, who then coerce the women into sex and impregnate them? What a completely nonsensical position to take, you want to prosecute rapists at the same time as giving males easier access to females when we are at our most vulnerable? Unbelievable! This seems like a whole lot of I don’t really give a fuck but saying my priority is prosecuting rapists makes me look good. Have you actually thought this through Adam? It doesn’t seem like it.

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 19:18

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 18:20

Would you buy a used car from this man?

This is fascinating Keir Starmer talks about female sports category without mentioning the words “women”or “girls” once…

twitter.com/MrsNickyClark/status/1782513016300326967?t=m30Wtijit5Bf7PRCAVpt_Q&s=19

I hate that rabbit in the headlights look he gets whenever he is asked about this stuff. He is appallingly bad.

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 19:20

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 18:21

I’ll see your Lammy, Nandy, Rayner, Butler and Dodds and give you Mordaunt, Nokes, May, Wallace, Tugendhat, Walker, Buckland and Jamie Wallace (who likes being called she). Mordaunt is tipped among Tory membership to be the next leader, by the way. It’s not looking great for you with any government.

Mordaunt does not have a chance. Badenoch is far more popular with Tory voters (if they are allowed to vote for her next time they elect a new leader).

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 19:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 19:34

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 19:14

This is a very odd view. You prioritise rape prosecutions but yet are in favour of allowing any random male who says their a female into places where females are vulnerable such as toilets. Have you not heard of Katie Dolatowskie, a transgender woman assaulting and trying to rape a young girl in a Morrison’s toilet? Karen White perhaps? Barbie Kardashian? Andrew Scott, who was Scotland’s most dangerous prisoner almost being allowed to transfer to Cornton Vale? The Louden County rapes? What about the women inmates in the USA being locked up in cells with convicted rapists, who then coerce the women into sex and impregnate them? What a completely nonsensical position to take, you want to prosecute rapists at the same time as giving males easier access to females when we are at our most vulnerable? Unbelievable! This seems like a whole lot of I don’t really give a fuck but saying my priority is prosecuting rapists makes me look good. Have you actually thought this through Adam? It doesn’t seem like it.

Do most rapes take place in toilets or in homes where the perpetrator is known to the victim?

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 19:35

Otter2 · 25/04/2024 19:20

Mordaunt does not have a chance. Badenoch is far more popular with Tory voters (if they are allowed to vote for her next time they elect a new leader).

Badenoch would be great for women.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:36

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 18:37

Thank you for your participation in the GC tactic “let them speak” we really do appreciate being patted on the head and told to “calm down dear” you should still vote for the Labour Party, even though our glorious leader said that it was wrong to say that only women have a cervix. Even though members of the Labour Party threaten to beat up other members for criticising our adherence to the trans agenda. Even though we are so scared of history repeating itself that we have once again denied the GC women’s group a stall at our conference. Even though we have threatened to throw them out of the party. Even though, in Wales, we are doing our damndest to erase women completely. Even though in Scotland we voted for the GRR and the dreadful Hate Crime Laws that were put in place specifically to silence GC women. If you are indeed a natal woman, you are doing a brilliant impersonation of mansplaining, you might want to think about that Adam.

I don't give a monkeys who you vote for.
And you've misunderstood the definition of mansplaining.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 19:38

Alexandra2001 · 25/04/2024 17:20

..and thats fair comment.

However, where we differ is in things like "the tories are insisting wards are single sex" how? how do they do that? hospitals are at capacity, SS wards need staff, equipment, mtce teams... its all hot air, meaningless waffle.

I don't believe the TOries have the slightest intention to change, they are mainly a party of men, proportionately have few female MPs, Labour have far more, why would that be if Lab are anti women?

I just don't see that Labour are captured by TWAW at all.

I also the damage 14 years has done to womens rights.

On Rosie Duffield, she is still in the Labour party and fighting hard for her beliefs... if Lab were a lost cause, she'd leave.

As for violence, thats against the law, why haven't these individuals been prosecuted? at the very least thrown out of the LP.

Like i said early, if you don't back Labour, you'll get another Tory govt and all that means for women.

👏

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