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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 16:58

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 16:31

Thanks @lifeturnsonadime that makes more sense.

So the Scottish statutory guidance on interpretation of the EA is out of synch with the English statutory and non-statutory guidance and there's been a court ruling that the Scottish statutory guidance is correct. I agree that's a problem. Although whether that means the primary legislation or the Scottish guidance needs to change I'm not sure. Presumably the Scottish govt could still amend the guidance again?

How would that work in practice for a provider like us? If someone with a GRC who had experienced DV turned up and wanted access to a woman only service and we turned them away on the basis we're relying on the English guidance (especially the non-statutory guidance which states a service like ours can exclude transwomen, without specifying that does not extend to the subgroup of transwomen with a GRC)? Does that need to go to JR in England now?

I feel like my best position would be surely to pretend ignorance and ask the EHRC to intervene?!

In practice like any small charity we would avoid this fight because we couldn't afford to litigate Speak to any small housing charity anf you'll find we're all the same, passing around the same residents with a history of ASB as when we 'evict' them we can't afford to let them take us to court, even when they've threatened other residents with knives, or on one occasion been given a suspended sentence for terrorism offenses after supplying explosives from a property (!) so we always try to rehouse them with another provider, wash, rinse, repeat. Last time we got counsels opinion on something it cost £10k, which had to come out of our reserves, weirdly grantfunders won't fund our 'legal slushfund for evicting the really difficult residents'. In this scenario we wouldn't accommodate her in shared accommodation with other women, but we would try to find her single occupancy accommodation. I suppose the woman with the GRC could argue we're discriminating on the basis this is separate but equal treatment, but our provision is not commissioned, it's all allocated on the basis of an individual needs based assessment and the LA eligibility criteria, so we just need to ensure any trans-applicants we make a watertight case need single-occupancy accommodation for reasons beyond 'we don't want them in the women's shared accommodation' and we should be OK I think?

[I get the test case might be useful, but I definitely don't want to be the org that takes it]

This is the problem in a nutshell, it is as clear as mud until it is clarified.

As a small service provider I agree it is intolerable that you should be in a position where you have no idea whether you are compliant or not.

On the one hand you could have a trans woman saying you are breaking the law (bear in mind that in most circumstances you can't even ask for a copy of the GRC) - i"m not sure if that applies to your service or not, and bring a claim against you if you exclude them from the woman only service.

On the other hand a woman could bring a claim on the same set of circumstances if she is denied access to a single sex provision by the presence of the male.

The trans woman has the benefit of the PC of both gender and sex seemingly, following Haldane.

The fact that Labour are saying that no clarification is needed places a potential liability on service providers which might eat up any additional funding (and some) if they end up on the wrong end of a claim.

This is (relatively) easy to rectify by excluding legal females from the meaning of Sex in the Act. No one is stopping a service provider from having 3 options what women are asking for is that one IS exclusively female. This is the basis of the Sarah Surviving case where there was none for the woman and 3 for the trans woman. This is the claim that RMW backed by a law firm of men are defending. It makes me sick that a group of males are doing this. This is what women are up against.

You should note that this is not my legal area. I'm an ex - employment lawyer but clearly the Equality Act discrimination laws are something I am conversant with in connection to the employment discrimination issues I had to work with.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 17:01

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:11

I've been having a look at this document and what it says about these themes in particular.

Did you read the detail? Because I'd like to see some evidence of where you think this kind of rhetoric is present on Mumsnet.

In the "threat to child safety" section:

"The reviewed literature also revealed a narrative where LGBTI+ people are identified as a threat to children through their supposed ‘predatory behaviour’, and attempts at ‘converting children into sexual perversions’; and finally, societies at large. In this narrative, so-called ‘LGBTI+ behaviours’ constitute a public health risk. The study ‘The European Union as a child molester: sex education on pro-Russian websites’, shows how sex education is vilified, and Russia is portrayed as a saviour of traditional values (Jarkovská 2020). Pro-Russian websites present extreme and manipulated representations of sex education in the EU, and callously exploit fears linked to concerns with sex education in educational systems (Jarkovská 2020). There are several examples of how the educational system is portrayed as a place of unwanted influence. For example, an overview of hate speech in Romania points at fears of children being taught ‘deviance’ (that is, homosexuality) in schools, and how this fear was exploited also in hate speech (Iordache 2015). Stoeckl (2018) reports how the EU is presented by certain media as imposing school curricula that teach masturbation. Sex education is also portrayed as an indicator of something worse to come (such as a general acceptance of so-called deviant sexualities, see Kuhar & Paternotte 2017). In this narrative, the child is seen as being threatened by indoctrination, sexualisation or being exposed to oversexual adults. The image of the innocent and endangered child seems particularly effective in triggering ‘moral panic’. This narrative is also connected to the prerogative of families to raise and educate their children according to their moral and religious beliefs (Kuhar & Paternotte 2017). Henning (2018) finds that the notion of Europeanisation of anti-discrimination policies in the arena of education makes the education system a key battleground."

I have seen absolutely nothing like this on Mumsnet. When Mumsnet users express concerns about child safety, it is generally in relation to children being encouraged to transition when they are too young to understand the consequences of this or give meaningful consent to any medical interventions.

I have seen some specific concerns raised about safeguarding risks inherent in people developing a relationship of trust and confidence with children behind their parents' backs, taking the view that adults who encourage children to keep secrets from their parents generally do not have those children's best interests at heart. I think this is a valid criticism.

I've also seen concerns expressed about specific individuals. I don't think it's fair to say that women who raise concerns about a self confessed paedophile being appointed to the board of trustees of the UK's largest charity for trans identifying children are spreading misinformation or hate about the LGBT+ community. Mermaids should have done some basic safeguarding.

In the "negative othering" section:

"The reviewed literature is rife with reports about various anti-narratives, where LGBTI+ people are given generic and unjust negative labels, where narratives either portray LGBTI+ people as morally corrupted and/or in some way a threat to society. Derogatory labels such as ‘faggot’ or ‘pédé’ (French), ‘maricón’ (Spanish) and ‘Tunte’ (German) are often used, as are statements of mockery through well-known slogans such as ‘homosexuality is an abomination’ and ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve’ (Russell 2019)."

Clearly, saying anything even remotely along these lines would get you banned from Mumsnet quicker than you can say "knife".

In the "gender ideology" section:

"Kuhar and Paternotte (in different combinations and multiple publications) trace a narrative of anti-gender across Europe, using Austria, Belgium, Croatia, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Russia, Slovenia and Spain as case studies. The authors find that actors unite under an umbrella of resistance against what is labelled ‘Gender Ideology’. This so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ is said to permeate and dominate Western liberal democracies in general, and the EU in particular. Kuhar and Paternotte (2017) explain that the term anti-gender captures a general opposition to women’s quest for equality and LGBTI+ rights, which threaten to erode hegemonic masculinity. Opponents to so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ rationalise their opposition by claiming that they combat the destruction of the human race and civilisation, which in their minds are threatened by the expansion of equal rights to women and LGBTI+ people. In their study of the far-right and conservative movements in France, Germany, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, Kovats & Pöim (2015) find that the term ‘gender’ successfully functions as a ‘symbolic glue’ for those involved. The term ‘Gender Ideology’ is an empty signifier which allows a diverse range of religious and far-right actors to team up to fight women’s equality, sex education and the rights of LGBTI+ people such as same-sex marriage. Hodzic and Bijelic (2014) conclude that fighting sexual and reproductive health and rights in the EU has united a range of different parties. Kuhar and Paternotte (2017) emphasise that opponents are transnationally interconnected, notwithstanding the fact that they proclaim their local embeddedness and support for national sovereignty; their declared aims are fighting against morally corrupt elites- notably represented by the EU and United Nations (UN) - that attempt to ‘colonise’ them by propagating liberal ideals. More recently, also the term ‘LGBT ideology’ has been repeatedly used derogatorily, notably by Polish politicians, to attack and dehumanise LGBTI+ people. (In response, the Commission President Ursula Von der Leyen and others, including the EP, have replied that it is not an ideology, it is an identity).4 Since ‘Gender Ideology’ is a construction by outsiders opposing gender and LGBTI+ equality, in cases where the term is spread intentionally to deceive the public this falls into the category of disinformation. However, it seems from the reviewed literature that many opponents of a ‘Gender Ideology’ actually believe in this as an intentional ‘ideology’, probably mistaking it with ‘Gender Theory’ in feminist studies. The narrative can thus amount to misinformation, but could also provide a fertile ground for foreign sponsored disinformation."

Again, this is absolutely not the prevailing view on Mumsnet, and anyone expressing these types of beliefs would get very short shrift on here.

People on this board do use the term "gender ideology". I disagree with the authors that it is an empty signifier; as far as I am concerned it is shorthand for the belief that people have gender identities which may either align or not align with their biological sex and that it is gender identity, not biological sex, which makes someone a man, woman or something else.

I think that is how most people are using the term on this board.

This section of the paper completely fails to acknowledge that the term "gender ideology" is used by a lot of people, with varying political beliefs and motives, to describe a belief system that they do not share.

I can't see anywhere in this paper where the authors acknowledge that there is a whole bunch of other people who are not fully supportive of "gender ideology", or what the authors might prefer to call "LGBT+ rights", for reasons other than being right wing bigots, Nazis, homophobes, American conservative Christians or Russian bots.

This bunch of other people can be broadly summarised as the silent majority, who have no particular beef with trans people but don't agree that rapists should be housed in women's prisons, that people who were born male should be competing in women's sports, that a person with a penis should be able to use women's changing rooms next to their teenage daughter or elderly mother simply because they "identify as a woman", or that children who play with the wrong kind of toys should be put on puberty blockers.

This is an entirely mainstream view, shared by the majority of people.

So why have the authors of the paper not acknowledged this?

Is it a deliberate omission? Or have they simply failed to talk to anyone outside their own echo chamber, rendering their own research utterly nonsensical?

Either way, suggesting that the themes referred to in the paper are prevalent and tolerated on Mumsnet is absolutely disgraceful.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:03

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 16:30

This of course is back to #Nodebate.
People have been forbidden from evidencing the massive influence of Stonewall and other queer theory groups who have encouraged civil servants to breach the Nolan principles and follow their demands. The DfE has used statutory guidance on Equality, anti bullying and even via Ofsted (until recently) to advise schools to consult Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence and even the scandal hit Mermaids.
Millions of £££ has been directed to these and other trans activist groups from the DfE, the Home Office and national and local government bodies, funding them to go into schools, social work, children's homes, the youth service and work with children, not just to promote one strand of equality but shamefully to persuade children that their growing bodies might be wrong but can be cured by changing sex.

This is so now clearly evidenced I can't believe it even has to be said. There are countless threads on here found via Advanced Search but for those struggling to believe women on here about how the capture of the civil service and other institutions has enabled political transactivism to flourish, maybe a couple of journalists might shed some light:

https://thecritic.co.uk/sorry-mr-reasonable/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/civil-servants-are-being-fed-gender-drivel-kkxv6zhc2

🙄

How is it "no debate" when I'm here trying to debate it? "No debate" is only coming from one side on this thread and this sounds like DARVO.

Civil servants are not the borg. They have not been en masse "captured". Neither have teachers. Neither have the NHS. It is very damaging to spread this. With austerity and cuts they all have enough to do without having to spend their time responding to nonsense about therians or trans breast feeding.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:03

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:48

3 strikes and you are out on this board I think

I've had a warning on the back of this thread.

Ridiculous. All because someone is offended over what many of us think is true.

We don't report Adam because largely we think posts should stand so people can see what others are saying and stand for.

So Adam might feel high and mighty and vindicated that they are a very good girl but it might be a different story if we were as keen on the report button as Adam and Blossom have been on this thread.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:06

You don't report me because I'm not breaking TG. You wouldn't be deleted if you were not breaking TG. MNHQ encourage reporting. If you think I'm breaking TG report me.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

No you haven't because I've never said that and you are either making it up or not following what I've posted

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:07

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:06

You don't report me because I'm not breaking TG. You wouldn't be deleted if you were not breaking TG. MNHQ encourage reporting. If you think I'm breaking TG report me.

LOL.

I don't report you because I want everyone to see what you write.

Blossom reported themself earlier. None of us would have. We want lurkers to see what you are saying to come to their own conclusions.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:08

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:06

No you haven't because I've never said that and you are either making it up or not following what I've posted

So do you think that women should have single sex toilets Adam?

it is a very very simple question.

Do you think that trans girls should be excluded from girls toilets in schools?

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:09

Stop trying to pick a fight with me please. We discussed this in detail upthread. My position is clear.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:11

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:09

Stop trying to pick a fight with me please. We discussed this in detail upthread. My position is clear.

No it isn't.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. You are claiming you don't put the wishes of trans people above women.

I'm asking you simple questions about that.

You are unreasonable for refusing to answer those questions directly.

Snowypeaks · 25/04/2024 17:13

bigcoatlady

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not trying to give legal advice, but as I understand it, Haldane doesn't change the fact that in provision of dv refuges, any male can be excluded from a women-only service, even if they have a GRC. The Haldane judgement says that sex in the EA is bio sex + legal sex, except where the Act specifically says it isn't. But if the exceptions in the EA are invoked for the aim of protecting the dignity, privacy and safety of women (which are all human rights), then the presumption that males with a GRC will be counted as women is trumped. DV refuges, rape crisis centres, communal toilets and changing rooms fall under this exception. Men who claim to be women can be excluded from these services/facilities as a proportionate means to a legitimate aim (of securing women's privacy. dignity and safety). The Inner House, which reviewed Haldane's judgement, confirmed that this is still the case in sections 54-59 of their judgement. There's no contradiction between the English and Scottish interpretations in this specific area.

Even if your funding is conditional on providing shelter to males with a GRC as well, you don't have to do it in the same building.

I appreciate that that wouldn't help if a GRC-wielding male wanted to sue you, but the law would be on your side.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 17:20

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:46

😂no agenda here, oh no

I have have had socialist views all my life and was actually a card carrying member of the SNP all my voting life. I have never in my life voted Tory. My father worked for the Labour Party in a Lanarkshire constituency, so I observed first hand the effects of cronyism that have been a historical part of the Labour Party and was the reason the councillor my father worked for then became an independent. There is no doubt that the left has gone mad, you only have to look at Wales to see what could happen when Labour gets in. The Biden leftist administration in the USA has just forced the participation of males in female sports categories, they are relentless in the subjugation of women, absolutely relentless. To argue that men should be allowed to play rugby or box against women just because they say they are women, as is happening in Ireland and Australia and now the USA is just unhinged.

Alexandra2001 · 25/04/2024 17:20

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 10:04

Almost every party has been complicit in allowing things to develop the way that they have, in all countries across the whole western world. The Tories have started to change, the Cass report and insisting that NHS wards are single sex is evidence of that. Labour is making some noise about it but the way that they have bullied GC women in their own party is horrific and shows not only how totally captured they are but the lengths they will go to, including threatening actual violence to Rosie Duffield, in order to push this ideology. The Tories have seen which way the wind is blowing and acted accordingly but Labour is so full of trans zealots that I don’t trust them an inch, especially not led by a coward like Starmer, who changes his mind every five minutes and still refuses to use the word woman in interviews. I am politically homeless right now with no idea who to vote for, but if Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants. As I said in an earlier post, hell will freeze over before I give either Labour, the Lib Dem’s or the appalling Green Party my vote. I will not vote for a party so captured by this ideology, the minute anyone says TWAW I know that they are either a liar or a fool, why the hell would I want someone who is that dishonest or stupid running the country?

..and thats fair comment.

However, where we differ is in things like "the tories are insisting wards are single sex" how? how do they do that? hospitals are at capacity, SS wards need staff, equipment, mtce teams... its all hot air, meaningless waffle.

I don't believe the TOries have the slightest intention to change, they are mainly a party of men, proportionately have few female MPs, Labour have far more, why would that be if Lab are anti women?

I just don't see that Labour are captured by TWAW at all.

I also the damage 14 years has done to womens rights.

On Rosie Duffield, she is still in the Labour party and fighting hard for her beliefs... if Lab were a lost cause, she'd leave.

As for violence, thats against the law, why haven't these individuals been prosecuted? at the very least thrown out of the LP.

Like i said early, if you don't back Labour, you'll get another Tory govt and all that means for women.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 17:22

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:58

No I didn't "deliberately draw false equivalence". I highlighted the narratives they had identified and said I'd observed the same narratives on this board.

Anyway I can't be bothered with this. Either engage constructively or don't. Nitpicking that "noone has said homosexuality is a sin, therefore this board is not being targeted to spread disinformation" is a waste of everyone's time.

I don't know what point you think you're making but the point I am making is that they are not the same narratives at all.

Did you even read the paper you linked to before you tarred us all with the same brush?

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 17:34

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:22

Saying women have vaginas is not unpleasant. Perhaps Blossom is reclaiming the word cunt. Like the poster on here who has a derogatory term for female genitalia as their user name.

Bloody hell, talk about gaslighting, words fail me!

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 17:36

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:35

I explained this in the post. MNHQ will delete it. Its happened to me before, it's against the rules. All I can do is say the sort of things I've read and posters will have to spot for themselves where views being expressed go outside the norm into politically motivated non-reality.

For me personally, anything about how public institutions or servants as a whole can't be trusted because of "ideological capture" is the sort of thing that sets my radar going. Anything that is religiously motivated or linked to the American Christian Right. Anything that plays on well known conspiracy theories and prejudices, like LGBT people are groomers and child abusers, or children are identifying as cats and miaowing at school.

Edited

Anything that is religiously motivated?

You do know that a number of historical reformers whose reforms are right in line with what used to be mainstream left wing policies were religiously motivated? It seems to me that you have a very one-sided view of religious people, specifically Christians. And that one-sided view also comes out into the open when you talk about Conservative politicians, who are actually more diverse in their opinions than you have given them credit for. I am no more likely to vote Tory than you are - I don’t think I could bring myself to do it - but I can still see when a Conservative has a genuine opinion that I share.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 17:42

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 17:03

🙄

How is it "no debate" when I'm here trying to debate it? "No debate" is only coming from one side on this thread and this sounds like DARVO.

Civil servants are not the borg. They have not been en masse "captured". Neither have teachers. Neither have the NHS. It is very damaging to spread this. With austerity and cuts they all have enough to do without having to spend their time responding to nonsense about therians or trans breast feeding.

😂😂
If you haven't noticed the data demonstrating the explosion in children thinking their sex is wrong and the information evidencing where this is coming from, (sadly including some teachers, medics, civil servants, EPs and the rest) then none of us can help you. After all, if the civil service hadn't been captured, then there wouldn't need to be the hard fought for SEEN network? One finally being established in the DfE I see.

I would have thought you might have noticed something - especially as you spend so much time on this board?

Never mind. Not to worry.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-staff-networks/seen-network

Sex Equality and Equity Network (SEEN)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-staff-networks/seen-network

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 17:43

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:03

I've had a warning on the back of this thread.

Ridiculous. All because someone is offended over what many of us think is true.

We don't report Adam because largely we think posts should stand so people can see what others are saying and stand for.

So Adam might feel high and mighty and vindicated that they are a very good girl but it might be a different story if we were as keen on the report button as Adam and Blossom have been on this thread.

They don't always warn, often they just delete. I've only found out about deletions on here when I've clicked on the 'you've been thanked' link and the relevant post has gone.

It must depend on how severe MNHQ thinks the rule breach is. I think it's 3 deletions with warnings, not just 3 deletions, as I've seen people on this thread who've had more than 3 deletions in one thread before.

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 17:45

Thank you @Snowypeaks that's extremely helpful.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 17:50

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:22

Labour get in they will go full steam ahead with the trans stuff, claiming that as they were voted in, that’s what the country wants
Their policy is the opposite of that. They have pledged to protect spaces for biological women only. So it would be very hard for them to claim they were voted in on the opposite Confused

What does "protect" mean?

Will they mandate that where gender segregation exists, single sex spaces or supports are also available if requested?

If single sex provisions remain optional will they clarify that not providing them may be considered discrimination against the protected characteristic of sex if it disadvantages female people?

Will they at least enshrine women's right to request single sex spaces or support without suffering retaliation, abuse or discrimination as a result and clarify thst if these things do happen they are a breach of the Equalities act?

Or will they just "protect" the existing right of providers to choose whether they take up the "proportionate" exemption, offer single sex spaces and run the risk of a lawsuit from a TRA organisation which even if they win wlll be costly and cause reputational damage, or not offer such support regardless of how many women may be disadvantaged by the lack thereof?

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 18:02

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 17:50

What does "protect" mean?

Will they mandate that where gender segregation exists, single sex spaces or supports are also available if requested?

If single sex provisions remain optional will they clarify that not providing them may be considered discrimination against the protected characteristic of sex if it disadvantages female people?

Will they at least enshrine women's right to request single sex spaces or support without suffering retaliation, abuse or discrimination as a result and clarify thst if these things do happen they are a breach of the Equalities act?

Or will they just "protect" the existing right of providers to choose whether they take up the "proportionate" exemption, offer single sex spaces and run the risk of a lawsuit from a TRA organisation which even if they win wlll be costly and cause reputational damage, or not offer such support regardless of how many women may be disadvantaged by the lack thereof?

Exactly. Does Adam sign important contracts without bothering with reading the terms and conditions. It's all we're asking. If they can't be clear, they can't be trusted.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2024 18:05

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 10:26

🙄
We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories

We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act.

Ah. So as expected they just mean they will protect the theoretical right of providers to offer single sex spaces but do nothing to stop TRAs effectively making this impractical in practice, and give women, the people who actually need the resources, no legal power or right in the matter at all.

Let's be very clear, this "right" is just the right of providers who meet the exemption to voluntarily offer single biological sex provisions. It is not an obligation to do so. And without that obligation it is in no way a right of people to single sex provisions.

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 18:10

Alexandra2001 · 25/04/2024 17:20

..and thats fair comment.

However, where we differ is in things like "the tories are insisting wards are single sex" how? how do they do that? hospitals are at capacity, SS wards need staff, equipment, mtce teams... its all hot air, meaningless waffle.

I don't believe the TOries have the slightest intention to change, they are mainly a party of men, proportionately have few female MPs, Labour have far more, why would that be if Lab are anti women?

I just don't see that Labour are captured by TWAW at all.

I also the damage 14 years has done to womens rights.

On Rosie Duffield, she is still in the Labour party and fighting hard for her beliefs... if Lab were a lost cause, she'd leave.

As for violence, thats against the law, why haven't these individuals been prosecuted? at the very least thrown out of the LP.

Like i said early, if you don't back Labour, you'll get another Tory govt and all that means for women.

You don’t see that the Labour Party are captured by TWAW 🤦‍♀️ Lammy, Nandy, Rayner, Butler, Anneliese Dodds, Keir “it’s wrong to say that only women have a cervix” Starmer to name just a few. The GC Labour women have been refused a stand at the conference again, in fear that they would be subject to harassment, they have also been threatened with expulsion for holding GC views. The police took the threats against Rosie Duffield so seriously that she was advised to not even attend last years conference, and there has been no censure of the activists who threatened her. The Labour Party in Wales doing its best to wipe out the reality of women altogether. What part of captured don’t you understand?

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 18:14

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 17:07

LOL.

I don't report you because I want everyone to see what you write.

Blossom reported themself earlier. None of us would have. We want lurkers to see what you are saying to come to their own conclusions.

absolutely!

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