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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 15:07

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 14:54

I'm hugely confused @lifeturnsonadime ! But I don't think you were trying to put words in my mouth (if that is what you were saying - genuinely not sure).

We are entitled to have different priorities on these issues and make different predictions about political outcomes.

On election my prediction is the Tories know they won't get back in and are salting the earth so in the unlikely event they win they will suddenly have to beg/borrow or steal the money to remove NI, inc funding on defence, ensure the Rwanda plan 'works' etc. I.e. unless Labour win funding for everything else will have to be cut. So its less will there be more money but how do we stop there being less.

On law - the fact the management committee of Rape Crisis Edinburgh appointed a man to the CEO role is odd by any measure. And I honestly don't know why they did that. But on no assessment could you argue they had to do that. Likewise the Haldane judgment - apologies if you have already covered this, but is your concern that Labour will allow the SNPs separate Gender Reform Bill to be reintroduced? My reading would be that a) the SNP are likely to tank in the election and b) Scottish Labour say the s35 order should be respected, but even if they didn't it just wouldn't be a priority for Scottish Labour to move ahead on this issue. I'm willing to bet serious money the words gender reform won't appear in Scottish Labour's manifesto pledges any time soon. Meaning future divergence on this issue is unlikely. Indeed the SNP have just moved back into minority govt at least in part because of a division in the coalition over the Cass Review. Even if they did well surely that's not a tiger they are going to poke for a while?

@Bigcoatlady the top part of the post about putting words into your mouth was not meant for you sorry.

Haldane is a Scottish judgement which must be followed in the rest of the UK unless there is a 'compelling reason not to', this judgement says that if a person holds a GRC then their acquired gender is their sex for the purpose of the equality Act. This legal paper might help you to explain it more - it's the first part.

https://www.blackstonechambers.com/documents/Transgender_Issues_in_the_Law_-_2023_in_Review.pdf

This means that Labour's statement that no amendments to the Equality Act is necessary to protect single sex spaces should be viewed with some trepidation.

https://www.blackstonechambers.com/documents/Transgender_Issues_in_the_Law_-_2023_in_Review.pdf

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 14:50

You should have read it because it explains why you are drawing a false equivalence between things which are not at all the same.

The paper gives examples of things which are completely different to what is said on here, by completely different people to those who are posting on here

Your false equivalence is incredibly offensive.

I'm sorry my ability to draw parallels in narratives has offended you.

Maybe you'll find this an easier article to digest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/1847976/russia-disinformation-putin-ulez-trans/amp

Inside Putin's underhanded plan to divide Brits over ULEZ and trans rights

EXCLUSIVE: The Russian despot is waging an information war against everyday Brits to try and turn us against each other. Here's how to fight back.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/1847976/russia-disinformation-putin-ulez-trans/amp

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:11

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:07

I'm sorry my ability to draw parallels in narratives has offended you.

Maybe you'll find this an easier article to digest.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/1847976/russia-disinformation-putin-ulez-trans/amp

They're not fucking parallels, Adam.

Of course it's fucking offensive that you are likening gender critical feminists on Mumsnet who care about women's rights and child safeguarding to shady right wing groups in other countries who think homosexuality is a sin, want to ban abortion and use offensive and degrading language about minorities.

How about instead of being sorry that I am offended by the very obviously offensive and untrue thing you said, you don't say it?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 15:15

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:11

They're not fucking parallels, Adam.

Of course it's fucking offensive that you are likening gender critical feminists on Mumsnet who care about women's rights and child safeguarding to shady right wing groups in other countries who think homosexuality is a sin, want to ban abortion and use offensive and degrading language about minorities.

How about instead of being sorry that I am offended by the very obviously offensive and untrue thing you said, you don't say it?

This is exactly the hypocrisy I was talking about.

But we are not allowed to offend Adam by saying how we interpret their posts.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:16

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:45

You have started multiple threads Adam.

And posted on them. You've spent hours on this.

You are getting hostility because your world view puts the wishes of males above the needs of women. We are women it's hardly fucking surprising.

You are getting hostility because your world view puts the wishes of males above the needs of women.

No. It doesn't. This is what I mean when I talk about "unhinged". You are deciding you know better than me what my "world view" is. What you put forward is an absolutely flawed, incorrect characterisation of my "world view" and one that you repeatedly make.

I am not engaging further because it is fruitless.

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lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 15:18

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:16

You are getting hostility because your world view puts the wishes of males above the needs of women.

No. It doesn't. This is what I mean when I talk about "unhinged". You are deciding you know better than me what my "world view" is. What you put forward is an absolutely flawed, incorrect characterisation of my "world view" and one that you repeatedly make.

I am not engaging further because it is fruitless.

It literally puts the wishes of males who want to be in women's toilets above the women who are excluded by their presence.

Not to mention all of the issues of girls in schools that we should ignore in favour of boys with gender identities.

You have said that these things don't bother you. Your world view is therefore that these males matter more.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:18

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:11

They're not fucking parallels, Adam.

Of course it's fucking offensive that you are likening gender critical feminists on Mumsnet who care about women's rights and child safeguarding to shady right wing groups in other countries who think homosexuality is a sin, want to ban abortion and use offensive and degrading language about minorities.

How about instead of being sorry that I am offended by the very obviously offensive and untrue thing you said, you don't say it?

I am saying that I believe there are a minority of posters here pushing a political agenda rather than being concerned about women's rights.

I don't believe I have to apologise for stating an opinion, no matter how much you twist my words to justify your hurt feelings.

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:25

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:18

I am saying that I believe there are a minority of posters here pushing a political agenda rather than being concerned about women's rights.

I don't believe I have to apologise for stating an opinion, no matter how much you twist my words to justify your hurt feelings.

If you believe there are posters pushing a political agenda aligned with those referred to in the paper you linked to, why did you not give some examples of things you have seen people say on Mumsnet which are actually like the examples given in the paper you linked to, rather than giving examples of completely different points of view expressed by completely different people with completely different motivations, and implying that they are all under the same nasty umbrella?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:27

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 15:15

This is exactly the hypocrisy I was talking about.

But we are not allowed to offend Adam by saying how we interpret their posts.

Quite.

It's breathtakingly hypocritical of someone who has incessantly whined about being referred to as a "TRA" to then directly liken gender critical feminists on Mumsnet to the far right and then basically shrug and say "sorry if you're offended".

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:29

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 15:18

It literally puts the wishes of males who want to be in women's toilets above the women who are excluded by their presence.

Not to mention all of the issues of girls in schools that we should ignore in favour of boys with gender identities.

You have said that these things don't bother you. Your world view is therefore that these males matter more.

Edited

No I haven't ever said "those things don't bother me".

I've said I personally don't care about using a public toilet if a TW is in there. You can extrapolate precisely nothing about my "world view" from that statement.

This is why it's fruitless. I haven't said the things you accuse me of. I don't think the things you accuse me of. I say it every time we are on a thread together and you persist with the long mischaracterisations. I don't know what the motivation is but I'm not engaging in your drama triangle.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:31

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:27

Quite.

It's breathtakingly hypocritical of someone who has incessantly whined about being referred to as a "TRA" to then directly liken gender critical feminists on Mumsnet to the far right and then basically shrug and say "sorry if you're offended".

I personally am not a TRA. TRAs do post on the board and I would not find it offensive if someone said that. I also would not find it offensive if someone dug out links to show that organisations were motivated to do that and how to spot it.

I find it very weird you are taking this so personally and it makes me wonder why?

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:35

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 15:25

If you believe there are posters pushing a political agenda aligned with those referred to in the paper you linked to, why did you not give some examples of things you have seen people say on Mumsnet which are actually like the examples given in the paper you linked to, rather than giving examples of completely different points of view expressed by completely different people with completely different motivations, and implying that they are all under the same nasty umbrella?

I explained this in the post. MNHQ will delete it. Its happened to me before, it's against the rules. All I can do is say the sort of things I've read and posters will have to spot for themselves where views being expressed go outside the norm into politically motivated non-reality.

For me personally, anything about how public institutions or servants as a whole can't be trusted because of "ideological capture" is the sort of thing that sets my radar going. Anything that is religiously motivated or linked to the American Christian Right. Anything that plays on well known conspiracy theories and prejudices, like LGBT people are groomers and child abusers, or children are identifying as cats and miaowing at school.

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Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 16:02

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:18

I am saying that I believe there are a minority of posters here pushing a political agenda rather than being concerned about women's rights.

I don't believe I have to apologise for stating an opinion, no matter how much you twist my words to justify your hurt feelings.

Oh the irony!

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 16:18

Imnobody4 · 25/04/2024 16:02

Oh the irony!

I thought that too! The amount of misrepresentation and word twisting from Adam is phenomenal.

I explained this in the post. MNHQ will delete it. It's happened to me before, it's against the rules..

This is untrue. I re-read the rules to check. It's a deletable offence to re-hash a deleted thread or create a TAAT. References to posts in other threads isn't. And MN don't prowl looking for posts either. They'd only know if it was reported. 🤔😬

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 16:20

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 11:08

What is this strawman? I honestly find it so odd when posters bring up NZ and Australia with such derision. I live closer to that area and I don't recognise that attitude at all. Jacinda, in fact, was a much admired leader.

Unbelievable! she went because she was pushed, because once people saw what she did she went from hero to zero.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 16:28

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:35

I explained this in the post. MNHQ will delete it. Its happened to me before, it's against the rules. All I can do is say the sort of things I've read and posters will have to spot for themselves where views being expressed go outside the norm into politically motivated non-reality.

For me personally, anything about how public institutions or servants as a whole can't be trusted because of "ideological capture" is the sort of thing that sets my radar going. Anything that is religiously motivated or linked to the American Christian Right. Anything that plays on well known conspiracy theories and prejudices, like LGBT people are groomers and child abusers, or children are identifying as cats and miaowing at school.

Edited

But then why didn't you say "I've seen it but I can't link to it because MNHQ will delete me how convenient" rather than giving specific examples of things you seemed to be suggesting were the same, but were actually very different?

Or it is that you have not, in fact, seen examples of people saying things like "homosexuality is a sin" being posted and allowed to remain Mumsnet?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 16:30

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 15:35

I explained this in the post. MNHQ will delete it. Its happened to me before, it's against the rules. All I can do is say the sort of things I've read and posters will have to spot for themselves where views being expressed go outside the norm into politically motivated non-reality.

For me personally, anything about how public institutions or servants as a whole can't be trusted because of "ideological capture" is the sort of thing that sets my radar going. Anything that is religiously motivated or linked to the American Christian Right. Anything that plays on well known conspiracy theories and prejudices, like LGBT people are groomers and child abusers, or children are identifying as cats and miaowing at school.

Edited

This of course is back to #Nodebate.
People have been forbidden from evidencing the massive influence of Stonewall and other queer theory groups who have encouraged civil servants to breach the Nolan principles and follow their demands. The DfE has used statutory guidance on Equality, anti bullying and even via Ofsted (until recently) to advise schools to consult Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence and even the scandal hit Mermaids.
Millions of £££ has been directed to these and other trans activist groups from the DfE, the Home Office and national and local government bodies, funding them to go into schools, social work, children's homes, the youth service and work with children, not just to promote one strand of equality but shamefully to persuade children that their growing bodies might be wrong but can be cured by changing sex.

This is so now clearly evidenced I can't believe it even has to be said. There are countless threads on here found via Advanced Search but for those struggling to believe women on here about how the capture of the civil service and other institutions has enabled political transactivism to flourish, maybe a couple of journalists might shed some light:

https://thecritic.co.uk/sorry-mr-reasonable/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/civil-servants-are-being-fed-gender-drivel-kkxv6zhc2

Sorry, Mr Reasonable | Josephine Bartosch | The Critic Magazine

Rejoice! Send forth for the Ocado delivery of Prosecco and release the canapes — Education Secretary Kit Malthouse has declared peace in the culture wars. More saviour than mere politician…

https://thecritic.co.uk/sorry-mr-reasonable

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 16:31

Thanks @lifeturnsonadime that makes more sense.

So the Scottish statutory guidance on interpretation of the EA is out of synch with the English statutory and non-statutory guidance and there's been a court ruling that the Scottish statutory guidance is correct. I agree that's a problem. Although whether that means the primary legislation or the Scottish guidance needs to change I'm not sure. Presumably the Scottish govt could still amend the guidance again?

How would that work in practice for a provider like us? If someone with a GRC who had experienced DV turned up and wanted access to a woman only service and we turned them away on the basis we're relying on the English guidance (especially the non-statutory guidance which states a service like ours can exclude transwomen, without specifying that does not extend to the subgroup of transwomen with a GRC)? Does that need to go to JR in England now?

I feel like my best position would be surely to pretend ignorance and ask the EHRC to intervene?!

In practice like any small charity we would avoid this fight because we couldn't afford to litigate Speak to any small housing charity anf you'll find we're all the same, passing around the same residents with a history of ASB as when we 'evict' them we can't afford to let them take us to court, even when they've threatened other residents with knives, or on one occasion been given a suspended sentence for terrorism offenses after supplying explosives from a property (!) so we always try to rehouse them with another provider, wash, rinse, repeat. Last time we got counsels opinion on something it cost £10k, which had to come out of our reserves, weirdly grantfunders won't fund our 'legal slushfund for evicting the really difficult residents'. In this scenario we wouldn't accommodate her in shared accommodation with other women, but we would try to find her single occupancy accommodation. I suppose the woman with the GRC could argue we're discriminating on the basis this is separate but equal treatment, but our provision is not commissioned, it's all allocated on the basis of an individual needs based assessment and the LA eligibility criteria, so we just need to ensure any trans-applicants we make a watertight case need single-occupancy accommodation for reasons beyond 'we don't want them in the women's shared accommodation' and we should be OK I think?

[I get the test case might be useful, but I definitely don't want to be the org that takes it]

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:46

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 16:18

I thought that too! The amount of misrepresentation and word twisting from Adam is phenomenal.

I explained this in the post. MNHQ will delete it. It's happened to me before, it's against the rules..

This is untrue. I re-read the rules to check. It's a deletable offence to re-hash a deleted thread or create a TAAT. References to posts in other threads isn't. And MN don't prowl looking for posts either. They'd only know if it was reported. 🤔😬

OK. Well I've answered that question before, had my reply deleted and had a warning so not interested in doing it again tbh.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:46

Dineasair · 25/04/2024 16:20

Unbelievable! she went because she was pushed, because once people saw what she did she went from hero to zero.

😂no agenda here, oh no

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NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 16:47

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:46

OK. Well I've answered that question before, had my reply deleted and had a warning so not interested in doing it again tbh.

Warning? Doubt it. You rarely get warnings for deletions.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 16:28

But then why didn't you say "I've seen it but I can't link to it because MNHQ will delete me how convenient" rather than giving specific examples of things you seemed to be suggesting were the same, but were actually very different?

Or it is that you have not, in fact, seen examples of people saying things like "homosexuality is a sin" being posted and allowed to remain Mumsnet?

I never said I had seen that. I was very clear about what I've seen.

You are splitting hairs as a way to avoid engaging with the substance.

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AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:48

NoWordForFluffy · 25/04/2024 16:47

Warning? Doubt it. You rarely get warnings for deletions.

3 strikes and you are out on this board I think

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 16:56

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:48

I never said I had seen that. I was very clear about what I've seen.

You are splitting hairs as a way to avoid engaging with the substance.

I'm not splitting hairs at all. You deliberately drew a false equivalence between the things mentioned in that paper and perfectly reasonable views expressed by gender critical feminists on Mumsnet.

If we weren't all posting anonymously it would be borderline libellous.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 16:58

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 16:56

I'm not splitting hairs at all. You deliberately drew a false equivalence between the things mentioned in that paper and perfectly reasonable views expressed by gender critical feminists on Mumsnet.

If we weren't all posting anonymously it would be borderline libellous.

No I didn't "deliberately draw false equivalence". I highlighted the narratives they had identified and said I'd observed the same narratives on this board.

Anyway I can't be bothered with this. Either engage constructively or don't. Nitpicking that "noone has said homosexuality is a sin, therefore this board is not being targeted to spread disinformation" is a waste of everyone's time.

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