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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
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20
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 13:29

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 13:21

So what do you mean Adam?

About what?
I literally cannot follow your point. You butted into a conversation about possible Russian disinformation, started going on about Labour again, said it was coming across as unhinged, I said ignore it then and you wrote a list of "things to ignore" which were nothing to do with the previous post.

I cannot respond, even if I wanted to, because I can't understand what you want me to respond to.

OP posts:
AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 13:33

Well, to me, it simply communicated the poster wasn't in control, so I didn't put as much effort into reading the post as I normally would. Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides is always better.

To you it's losing control, to me it just conveyed the feelings of frustration which I felt. Some posters have that effect on here. Usually the ones who argue for men to be in women's spaces, the usual crew.

Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides happens does it? Can't wait to see that.

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 13:36

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 13:33

Well, to me, it simply communicated the poster wasn't in control, so I didn't put as much effort into reading the post as I normally would. Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides is always better.

To you it's losing control, to me it just conveyed the feelings of frustration which I felt. Some posters have that effect on here. Usually the ones who argue for men to be in women's spaces, the usual crew.

Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides happens does it? Can't wait to see that.

I feel slightly mad. She was literally responding to posts by me in which I was staunchly arguing for the exclusion of men inc transwomen from womens spaces.

She then insulted me by suggesting I don't know the meaning of basic terms in a field I have worked in for nearly thirty years and that I has somehow been captured by gender ideology. And then she started shouting.

How is that reasoned discussion?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 13:37

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 13:29

About what?
I literally cannot follow your point. You butted into a conversation about possible Russian disinformation, started going on about Labour again, said it was coming across as unhinged, I said ignore it then and you wrote a list of "things to ignore" which were nothing to do with the previous post.

I cannot respond, even if I wanted to, because I can't understand what you want me to respond to.

I'll spell it out for you.

I said that suggestions that women who are unhappy with the labour party's treatment of women and their lack of clarity about what they will do wrt to women's rights when they get into power is because women are influenced by Russia and China is unhinged.

You said you see plenty of things on these threads that you think are unhinged.

I have asked you to clarify what those things are. I made some suggestions of what women are saying on these threads and you have said that's just my opinion when I asked if that's what you meant by unhinged beliefs.

If you didn't mean that I am asking what you did mean.

It is a reasonable question.

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 13:39

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 13:36

I feel slightly mad. She was literally responding to posts by me in which I was staunchly arguing for the exclusion of men inc transwomen from womens spaces.

She then insulted me by suggesting I don't know the meaning of basic terms in a field I have worked in for nearly thirty years and that I has somehow been captured by gender ideology. And then she started shouting.

How is that reasoned discussion?

Just for clarity I absolutely get she had experienced male violence and the imposition of men being present in what should have been single sex spaces (which should not ever happen) and that intensified her feelings about the issue. But it was not actually a response to what I was saying. So it was understandable but it was not reasonable.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 13:41

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 13:36

I feel slightly mad. She was literally responding to posts by me in which I was staunchly arguing for the exclusion of men inc transwomen from womens spaces.

She then insulted me by suggesting I don't know the meaning of basic terms in a field I have worked in for nearly thirty years and that I has somehow been captured by gender ideology. And then she started shouting.

How is that reasoned discussion?

I don't want to speak for that poster but my impression was that that post was not aimed at you on a personal level but rather a frustration at this thread as a whole where women are being told by some posters, not necessarily you, that we should hold our noses and vote Labour and that we are being controlled by external forces (Russia and China) was mentioned.

Hopefully she will come back on to clarify.

JessS1990 · 25/04/2024 13:55

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 13:33

Well, to me, it simply communicated the poster wasn't in control, so I didn't put as much effort into reading the post as I normally would. Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides is always better.

To you it's losing control, to me it just conveyed the feelings of frustration which I felt. Some posters have that effect on here. Usually the ones who argue for men to be in women's spaces, the usual crew.

Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides happens does it? Can't wait to see that.

Has there been a post on this thread arguing for men in women's spaces?
If there has I must have missed it.

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 13:58

@lifeturnsonadime the Russian bots comment aside (which I agree is wrong and implies women have a false consciousness on this issue, which we wouldn't accept on women's political opinions on other matters) the rest of the post is very definitely a response to an earlier exchange between us, particularly when I responded to her querying levels of violence in women-only services, and why women's shared accommodation can be dangerous.

As I said, I can see from the perspective of someone who has used women's only services and then been excluded by the presence of men its frustrating to hear that another reason they aren't available is cold hard cash. Male presences in female spaces could be a bigger problem if we had the female spaces in the first place - but without the funding to deliver them we don't actually have enough things to keep men out of. I think we should keep men out of these spaces, but where I came in is we first need the cash to set the services up. Which could mean direct action at a local level or political action or both. Once we get them up and running then we should keep men out of them.

I appreciate people on this thread would prefer to prioritise the other way around - get the commitment anything funded will be free of men, then try and get the money. I worry for a range of reasons that this strategy will not deliver for women but I accept that people are all entitled to different political priorities and to vote and act accordingly.

And however this poster felt she isn't entitled to insult me, question my motivations, mischaracterise my arguments or assume that I have some false intention to reframe her trauma. I'm surprised by how upset this has made me feel. I have tried really hard on this thread to show respect for other people's arguments, correct my own errors and clarify when I have expressed myself poorly. I'm sure some errors are still present. And I've appreciated where that has been reciprocated. But in this instance, despite good faith on my part I have only been insulted in response.

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 14:01

@Bigcoatlady @lifeturnsonadime

I don't want to speak for that poster but my impression was that that post was not aimed at you on a personal level but rather a frustration at this thread as a whole where women are being told by some posters, not necessarily you, that we should hold our noses and vote Labour and that we are being controlled by external forces (Russia and China) was mentioned.

Don't worry @Bigcoatlady - I was responding to another post of the very same same poster. It isn't surprising you are confused!

BTW, lifeturnsonadime, I have never said "vote Labour". Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 14:06

Apologies - bold fail.

And I didn't reference a poster - LilyBartsHatShop. I think that's the one that you're talking about?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:15

I think this is where long threads can be confusing.

I wasn't trying to put words into anyones mouth.

Nor was a referring specifically to your original post. I was talking about in response to the themes coming out. One of the themes is women are being controlled another is that we should ignore our own needs in favour of men and consider other issues more important.

@Bigcoatlady I can see where you are coming from with regards to the order of things and the importance of funding, but I am very cynical of how that approach will work. Labour are likely to win the election, whilst this might mean that there is additional funding for services I have no confidence that they will reserve spaces for women independently of males (especially the ones with the GRC). We already have a male in a role reserved for women under the Equality Act as the head of rape crisis in Edinburgh because the provider has decided that single sex has a different meaning from that intended by those who drafted the Act (that male doesn't even have a GRC so is not even a legal woman), then we have the impact of the Haldane judgement. My background is as a former practicing solicitor which , like your background, affects my interpretation of where we are with all this. I just don't have the confidence that Labour will reserve any of these spaces for just women especially given it's assertion that no amendments to the Equality Act is required to do this.

I think women are getting frustrated. I am immensely frustrated.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 14:18

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:16

I'm not linking across threads as it's against MN etiquette and will be deleted.

LGBTQ education - In this narrative, the child is seen as being threatened by indoctrination, sexualisation or being exposed to oversexual adults I've seen numerous posts on here calling for sex education to be reviewed and material relating to gender ID and sexuality to be removed as its encouraging children to think they are trans. The Scottish Youth LGBT threads being an example. I've seen linking of "gender identity " with a widespread concern children are identifying as animals because they've been taught you can identify as what you like. That is the same narrative

"Negative othering" - narratives either portray LGBTI+ people as morally corrupted and/or in some way a threat to society. I've seen repeated posts that trans people are AGP performing a fetish and using women as props. That they will attack women and children and therefore need banning from all single sex spaces for safety. There are posts like that on this thread.

In the "gender ideology" section - This so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ is said to permeate and dominate Western liberal democracies in general
There are repeated references on here to the "ideological capture" of the civil service, and that "the left" can't be trusted. You yourself have said that the current situation is "100% the fault of the left" (the left being a liberal democracy). I've seen other posters amplifying Luz Truss' "deep state infested with trans activists" narratives too.

Disinformation isn't overt hate speech. If it were, it would be easily dealt with by being deleted/prosecuted etc. What happens with disinformation is it influences people by reinforcing their confirmation bias. It moves the "Overton Window". That has clearly happened here.

Do you genuinely not understand that the things you are referring to that you have seen on Mumsnet are not the same as the things being referred to in the paper you linked to?

Regarding sex education, for example. Yes, there are a lot of posters on here who are concerned about what is being taught in schools around gender identity. Specifically, many of us are worried about children being encouraged to believe that they can change sex, or that they get to choose whether to be a girl or a boy, or being taught that everyone has a gender identity as though it is fact, use of reductive stereotypes such as the "Genderbread Person", for example. I've also seen people expressing concerns about children's books, such as "Grandad's Pride" which has some very questionable material in it, as well as a book aimed at teenage girls which appears to glorify self harm and promote mastectomies.

These things are CLEARLY not the same as the things which are mentioned in the paper you linked to, which claims that Romanian children are being taught that homosexuality is deviant, or that the EU is being falsely presented as imposing school curricula that teach masturbation. How are these things equivalent?

Regarding "negative othering", what exactly is your point here? Because you seem to be suggesting that women should not talk about people who self-identify as trans who transgress women's boundaries and behave in inappropriate ways, in case it brings the LGBT+ community into disrepute?? Hell, no. How about people like Darren Mew stop bringing the LGBT+ community into disrepute by doing things like posting pictures of their cock and balls all over Twitter whilst working for a children's charity? How about all these people posting pictures and videos of themselves posing in women's lingerie or masturbating in women's toilets just... not? Because they are bringing the LGBT+ community into disrepute? The problem is some people's behaviour, not women who want to talk about that behaviour.

But it bears repeating that talking about the unacceptable behaviour displayed by some people who claim to be part of the LGBT+ community is not the same as using language such as "faggot" or "homosexuality is an abomination" or "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", which are the examples of "negative othering" given in the paper you linked to.

As for gender ideology, yes, people on here talk about ideological capture of our institutions and the fault of the left.

With. Good. Reason.

It is a FACT that the NHS has systematically removed words such as "woman" and "mother" and "breastfeeding" from information about women's healthcare.

It is a FACT that public sector employers have been forcing their staff to do compulsory diversity training run by people who misrepresent the law and describe phrases such as "adult human female" as a "transphobic dog whistle", putting pressure on people to declare their pronouns and wear rainbow lanyards, and that the unions have not supported members with gender critical views.

It is a FACT that the SEEN Network has been fighting for its very right to exist.

It is a FACT that left wing politicians have, of their own volition, said absolutely batshit things such as "women have penises" and said or at least heavily implied that if you don't agree you're an awful bigot.

None of this is "disinformation".

And none of it is equivalent to the examples given in the "gender ideology" section of the document you linked to, which does not refer to any of the above but talks exclusively about right wing groups which are opposed to LGBT+ rights more broadly, including things like same sex marriage, and women's rights, including things like the right to an abortion.

I can only conclude that either you did not read the document you linked to before attempting to tar us all with the same brush - in which case more fool you, because I did - or you have no problem being breathtakingly dishonest.

Either way, it's not a good look.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:32

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:15

I think this is where long threads can be confusing.

I wasn't trying to put words into anyones mouth.

Nor was a referring specifically to your original post. I was talking about in response to the themes coming out. One of the themes is women are being controlled another is that we should ignore our own needs in favour of men and consider other issues more important.

@Bigcoatlady I can see where you are coming from with regards to the order of things and the importance of funding, but I am very cynical of how that approach will work. Labour are likely to win the election, whilst this might mean that there is additional funding for services I have no confidence that they will reserve spaces for women independently of males (especially the ones with the GRC). We already have a male in a role reserved for women under the Equality Act as the head of rape crisis in Edinburgh because the provider has decided that single sex has a different meaning from that intended by those who drafted the Act (that male doesn't even have a GRC so is not even a legal woman), then we have the impact of the Haldane judgement. My background is as a former practicing solicitor which , like your background, affects my interpretation of where we are with all this. I just don't have the confidence that Labour will reserve any of these spaces for just women especially given it's assertion that no amendments to the Equality Act is required to do this.

I think women are getting frustrated. I am immensely frustrated.

Pointing out that Russia and other bad actors will exploit issues like this to undermine democracy isn't saying women are being controlled. It's saying that not everyone who appears to share your view is trying to get to the same outcome.

another is that we should ignore our own needs in favour of men and consider other issues more important. Noone has said this. Do what you like but equally don't demand other women do what you want them to and call them names when they don't comply with you.

I am entitled to prioritise rape prosecution rates over trans women in toilets.

Bigcoat is entitled to prioritise funding for refuges over excluding trans women from those services

Etc etc.

People are allowed different opinions

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:38

Adam of course people are allowed different opinions.

But do tell me what is the purpose of you starting these multiple threads if it is not to try to convince people (in this case women) that their opinion is wrong?

Are you just here for the chat?

You are expending a lot of time and energy on these threads if it is not with a view to trying to convince people that your opinion is the right one.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:39

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 14:18

Do you genuinely not understand that the things you are referring to that you have seen on Mumsnet are not the same as the things being referred to in the paper you linked to?

Regarding sex education, for example. Yes, there are a lot of posters on here who are concerned about what is being taught in schools around gender identity. Specifically, many of us are worried about children being encouraged to believe that they can change sex, or that they get to choose whether to be a girl or a boy, or being taught that everyone has a gender identity as though it is fact, use of reductive stereotypes such as the "Genderbread Person", for example. I've also seen people expressing concerns about children's books, such as "Grandad's Pride" which has some very questionable material in it, as well as a book aimed at teenage girls which appears to glorify self harm and promote mastectomies.

These things are CLEARLY not the same as the things which are mentioned in the paper you linked to, which claims that Romanian children are being taught that homosexuality is deviant, or that the EU is being falsely presented as imposing school curricula that teach masturbation. How are these things equivalent?

Regarding "negative othering", what exactly is your point here? Because you seem to be suggesting that women should not talk about people who self-identify as trans who transgress women's boundaries and behave in inappropriate ways, in case it brings the LGBT+ community into disrepute?? Hell, no. How about people like Darren Mew stop bringing the LGBT+ community into disrepute by doing things like posting pictures of their cock and balls all over Twitter whilst working for a children's charity? How about all these people posting pictures and videos of themselves posing in women's lingerie or masturbating in women's toilets just... not? Because they are bringing the LGBT+ community into disrepute? The problem is some people's behaviour, not women who want to talk about that behaviour.

But it bears repeating that talking about the unacceptable behaviour displayed by some people who claim to be part of the LGBT+ community is not the same as using language such as "faggot" or "homosexuality is an abomination" or "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", which are the examples of "negative othering" given in the paper you linked to.

As for gender ideology, yes, people on here talk about ideological capture of our institutions and the fault of the left.

With. Good. Reason.

It is a FACT that the NHS has systematically removed words such as "woman" and "mother" and "breastfeeding" from information about women's healthcare.

It is a FACT that public sector employers have been forcing their staff to do compulsory diversity training run by people who misrepresent the law and describe phrases such as "adult human female" as a "transphobic dog whistle", putting pressure on people to declare their pronouns and wear rainbow lanyards, and that the unions have not supported members with gender critical views.

It is a FACT that the SEEN Network has been fighting for its very right to exist.

It is a FACT that left wing politicians have, of their own volition, said absolutely batshit things such as "women have penises" and said or at least heavily implied that if you don't agree you're an awful bigot.

None of this is "disinformation".

And none of it is equivalent to the examples given in the "gender ideology" section of the document you linked to, which does not refer to any of the above but talks exclusively about right wing groups which are opposed to LGBT+ rights more broadly, including things like same sex marriage, and women's rights, including things like the right to an abortion.

I can only conclude that either you did not read the document you linked to before attempting to tar us all with the same brush - in which case more fool you, because I did - or you have no problem being breathtakingly dishonest.

Either way, it's not a good look.

Tl;Dr most of it

The paper gives examples to illustrate a narrative.

I see the same narratives on here and am giving examples to illustrate.

It is a fact Russia spreads misinformation to undermine Western democracy and support its own strategic objectives.

It's also a fact that numerous companies exist to promote and amplify messaging on the Internet and influence electoral campaigns.

It is also a fact that the MN member demographic has been identified as a key demographic to decide who wins the next election.

It's also a fact that Lee Anderson is on record saying the Conservatives should fight the election using trans issues as a culture war.

My observations are a lot of the "themes" of posts on here chime with the narratives identified in that report.

My logical inference therefore is that some (by no means all) posters on here are posting with the intent to influence womens voting towards the right or in a way that undermines democracy, not because they support womens rights or are interested in improving the lives of women.

You may disagree. Your choice.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:41

Pointing out that Russia and other bad actors will exploit issues like this to undermine democracy isn't saying women are being controlled. It's saying that not everyone who appears to share your view is trying to get to the same outcome.

By the same token not everyone who appears to be pro-trans shares the view that gender should be more important than sex.

It appeals to any person who thinks that women shouldn't have spaces away from the male gaze. It appeals to anyone who doesn't want women to be able to congregate and share ideas. It has massive appeal for incels and misogynists.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:43

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:38

Adam of course people are allowed different opinions.

But do tell me what is the purpose of you starting these multiple threads if it is not to try to convince people (in this case women) that their opinion is wrong?

Are you just here for the chat?

You are expending a lot of time and energy on these threads if it is not with a view to trying to convince people that your opinion is the right one.

I haven't started "multiple threads".

Yes I'm just here for the chat. It's a discussion board. Kind of the point.

It interests me that my chat is threatening enough to warrant the amount of hostility I get. It is very reminiscent of the hostility I used to get from actual TRAs for saying women have vaginas.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:44

So how do we end this culture war? Oh I know, I've got an idea! How about we go back to reality and start treating women as though they are fully human.

If the side affect of gender ideology is it is a gift to bad actors then stop making it a gift!

And start putting women first.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:45

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:41

Pointing out that Russia and other bad actors will exploit issues like this to undermine democracy isn't saying women are being controlled. It's saying that not everyone who appears to share your view is trying to get to the same outcome.

By the same token not everyone who appears to be pro-trans shares the view that gender should be more important than sex.

It appeals to any person who thinks that women shouldn't have spaces away from the male gaze. It appeals to anyone who doesn't want women to be able to congregate and share ideas. It has massive appeal for incels and misogynists.

You are at it again. I don't mean to be rude but I really don't want to engage in your doom spiralling.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:45

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:43

I haven't started "multiple threads".

Yes I'm just here for the chat. It's a discussion board. Kind of the point.

It interests me that my chat is threatening enough to warrant the amount of hostility I get. It is very reminiscent of the hostility I used to get from actual TRAs for saying women have vaginas.

You have started multiple threads Adam.

And posted on them. You've spent hours on this.

You are getting hostility because your world view puts the wishes of males above the needs of women. We are women it's hardly fucking surprising.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 14:46

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:45

You are at it again. I don't mean to be rude but I really don't want to engage in your doom spiralling.

So you can talk about unintended consequences where it suits you but no one else can? I see.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 14:50

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 14:39

Tl;Dr most of it

The paper gives examples to illustrate a narrative.

I see the same narratives on here and am giving examples to illustrate.

It is a fact Russia spreads misinformation to undermine Western democracy and support its own strategic objectives.

It's also a fact that numerous companies exist to promote and amplify messaging on the Internet and influence electoral campaigns.

It is also a fact that the MN member demographic has been identified as a key demographic to decide who wins the next election.

It's also a fact that Lee Anderson is on record saying the Conservatives should fight the election using trans issues as a culture war.

My observations are a lot of the "themes" of posts on here chime with the narratives identified in that report.

My logical inference therefore is that some (by no means all) posters on here are posting with the intent to influence womens voting towards the right or in a way that undermines democracy, not because they support womens rights or are interested in improving the lives of women.

You may disagree. Your choice.

You should have read it because it explains why you are drawing a false equivalence between things which are not at all the same.

The paper gives examples of things which are completely different to what is said on here, by completely different people to those who are posting on here

Your false equivalence is incredibly offensive.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 25/04/2024 14:51

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 14:18

Do you genuinely not understand that the things you are referring to that you have seen on Mumsnet are not the same as the things being referred to in the paper you linked to?

Regarding sex education, for example. Yes, there are a lot of posters on here who are concerned about what is being taught in schools around gender identity. Specifically, many of us are worried about children being encouraged to believe that they can change sex, or that they get to choose whether to be a girl or a boy, or being taught that everyone has a gender identity as though it is fact, use of reductive stereotypes such as the "Genderbread Person", for example. I've also seen people expressing concerns about children's books, such as "Grandad's Pride" which has some very questionable material in it, as well as a book aimed at teenage girls which appears to glorify self harm and promote mastectomies.

These things are CLEARLY not the same as the things which are mentioned in the paper you linked to, which claims that Romanian children are being taught that homosexuality is deviant, or that the EU is being falsely presented as imposing school curricula that teach masturbation. How are these things equivalent?

Regarding "negative othering", what exactly is your point here? Because you seem to be suggesting that women should not talk about people who self-identify as trans who transgress women's boundaries and behave in inappropriate ways, in case it brings the LGBT+ community into disrepute?? Hell, no. How about people like Darren Mew stop bringing the LGBT+ community into disrepute by doing things like posting pictures of their cock and balls all over Twitter whilst working for a children's charity? How about all these people posting pictures and videos of themselves posing in women's lingerie or masturbating in women's toilets just... not? Because they are bringing the LGBT+ community into disrepute? The problem is some people's behaviour, not women who want to talk about that behaviour.

But it bears repeating that talking about the unacceptable behaviour displayed by some people who claim to be part of the LGBT+ community is not the same as using language such as "faggot" or "homosexuality is an abomination" or "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve", which are the examples of "negative othering" given in the paper you linked to.

As for gender ideology, yes, people on here talk about ideological capture of our institutions and the fault of the left.

With. Good. Reason.

It is a FACT that the NHS has systematically removed words such as "woman" and "mother" and "breastfeeding" from information about women's healthcare.

It is a FACT that public sector employers have been forcing their staff to do compulsory diversity training run by people who misrepresent the law and describe phrases such as "adult human female" as a "transphobic dog whistle", putting pressure on people to declare their pronouns and wear rainbow lanyards, and that the unions have not supported members with gender critical views.

It is a FACT that the SEEN Network has been fighting for its very right to exist.

It is a FACT that left wing politicians have, of their own volition, said absolutely batshit things such as "women have penises" and said or at least heavily implied that if you don't agree you're an awful bigot.

None of this is "disinformation".

And none of it is equivalent to the examples given in the "gender ideology" section of the document you linked to, which does not refer to any of the above but talks exclusively about right wing groups which are opposed to LGBT+ rights more broadly, including things like same sex marriage, and women's rights, including things like the right to an abortion.

I can only conclude that either you did not read the document you linked to before attempting to tar us all with the same brush - in which case more fool you, because I did - or you have no problem being breathtakingly dishonest.

Either way, it's not a good look.

Another incisive and accurate post @MissScarletInTheBallroom. Thank you so much for making the effort to challenge so many deliberate misrepresentations of what women on this board speak about Flowers
I'm sure it's appreciated by countless lurkers who no longer bother to engage.

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 14:54

I'm hugely confused @lifeturnsonadime ! But I don't think you were trying to put words in my mouth (if that is what you were saying - genuinely not sure).

We are entitled to have different priorities on these issues and make different predictions about political outcomes.

On election my prediction is the Tories know they won't get back in and are salting the earth so in the unlikely event they win they will suddenly have to beg/borrow or steal the money to remove NI, inc funding on defence, ensure the Rwanda plan 'works' etc. I.e. unless Labour win funding for everything else will have to be cut. So its less will there be more money but how do we stop there being less.

On law - the fact the management committee of Rape Crisis Edinburgh appointed a man to the CEO role is odd by any measure. And I honestly don't know why they did that. But on no assessment could you argue they had to do that. Likewise the Haldane judgment - apologies if you have already covered this, but is your concern that Labour will allow the SNPs separate Gender Reform Bill to be reintroduced? My reading would be that a) the SNP are likely to tank in the election and b) Scottish Labour say the s35 order should be respected, but even if they didn't it just wouldn't be a priority for Scottish Labour to move ahead on this issue. I'm willing to bet serious money the words gender reform won't appear in Scottish Labour's manifesto pledges any time soon. Meaning future divergence on this issue is unlikely. Indeed the SNP have just moved back into minority govt at least in part because of a division in the coalition over the Cass Review. Even if they did well surely that's not a tiger they are going to poke for a while?

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 15:04

Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides happens does it? Can't wait to see that.

Go back a few pages. There was quite a lot of it yesterday. The thread’s turned into chaos today for some reason.

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