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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The history of the Gender Recognition actand Labour's role

1000 replies

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:08

There have been lots of threads recently about Labour's position on gender and their role in the GRA. A poster on another thread made a slightly off topic point that I thought deserved a thread of its own. Please scroll on past or hide this thread if you aren't interested in discussing further!

Thanks to @bigcoatlady....

The Gender Recognition Act 2004 only allows people to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate if they have two written reports by medical professionals confirming that they have lived in their affirmed gender for two years as well as evidence of any medical treatment they have undergone. There is no requirement for a GRC to be issued that the applicant has undergone surgery, the reason for this is the original bill introduced by Labour restricted GRCs only to those who had received surgery and this was removed in the Lords by Tory peers uncomfortable with the requirement that 'men' undergo surgical removal of the penis.

That much is ancient history. Less than 5000 people in the UK have a GRC.

In 2015 the Home Office launched a proposal to remove the costly and time-consuming medical assessment of applications for gender recognition in favour of self-ID. This was a Tory proposal from a Tory government. They have since reversed their position on it but it was never a Labour proposal.

The Equality Act 2010 has always made it possible to exclude trans women from women only competitive sports (s.195), women only services (sch 3), all women shortlists(s104(7)), communal accommodation (sch23), women only associations (sch16) and job requirements (sch 9).

As a result employers who want to recruit a woman but not a transwoman to a role such as 'rape crisis counsellor' have always been able to do so. If a rape crisis service wanted to offer rape crisis group therapy ONLY to women and not trans women they are entirely permitted to do so. If a domestic violence refuge (and I have chaired the board of trustees of a housing charity which offers refuge services for many years) wants to only accommodate women and not trans women it can do so.

Services such as Survivors Network are choosing to include transwomen in their service for whatever reasons but there is no legal obligation on them to do this.

Even had the Tory proposals to permit self-ID gone ahead it was never proposed that the law be changed further to reduce the protection for women only spaces in the Equality Act.

You can call that a gender ideology scandal if you like but its pretty tame.

There is another scandal. During those fifteen years, those of us who have been scrabbling to fund frontline services have been hard hit by austerity. In the city my charity operates in the women-led charities which delivered refuge services went to the wall in the first round of austerity. By 2015 we had no DV refuges at all. Our Rape Crisis nearly went bust and is currently closed to new referrals. We are not a women only provider but we started to offer specialist accommodation for women at risk of homelessness 8 yrs ago because of the massive demand. Women leaving violent partners were becoming street homeless and ending up in hostels surrounded by aggressive mean with drug issues due to the shortage of safe accommodation.

Two years ago the govt did create a statutory duty on councils to urgently accommodate households leaving DV BUT by then it was too bloody late, the good charities had already sold up their properties and moved on. The sector has been ripped apart by the last fifteen years

This is a bigger scandal than the GRA.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 11:43

Cailleach1 · 25/04/2024 11:26

I don’t think it should have been deleted. Gives you insight into the poster.

The poster requested deletion. It was ill judged.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:48

BIossomtoes · 25/04/2024 11:43

No. It wasn’t people.

Well if it was "women" the "with cunts" part was entirely superfluous.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 11:54

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 11:01

Noone has said that.

We are back to the "you want trans people to die!!@!" level of rhetoric again.

BTW Sarah Summers got crucified on here when she posted recently, for daring to mention WPUK. Didn't see any 9f you sticking up for her then. Instead it was 40 pages of chastising her for wrong think.

Same with Rosie Duffield recently. These women are only useful when they are saying what you need them too. It's pretty shallow to start using them as a gotcha

Sarah Summers got some heavy criticism (rather strongly expressed), stood up for herself, listened to the criticism, appeared to take on board the valid points made without compromising her own values, and in my opinion came across as a very sensible person. She clearly has some admirable qualities.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:55

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 11:54

Sarah Summers got some heavy criticism (rather strongly expressed), stood up for herself, listened to the criticism, appeared to take on board the valid points made without compromising her own values, and in my opinion came across as a very sensible person. She clearly has some admirable qualities.

What was she being criticised for?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 11:57

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:48

Well if it was "women" the "with cunts" part was entirely superfluous.

It was something along the lines of perhaps instead of biological women we should be women with cunts.

Very unpleasant and revealing.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 12:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:55

What was she being criticised for?

I can’t remember clearly, but I think it was for associating with the wrong kind of feminists (a particular group in Brighton), who had some wrong views. I read it all because I already had a lot of sympathy for SS and wanted to understand the internal feminist politics better, but I rather failed in that! From my uninformed perspective it was storm in a teacup territory, but strongly held opinions were being expressed and SS was sometimes the target. She handled it with considerable tact and dignity in my opinion.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:16

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:11

I've been having a look at this document and what it says about these themes in particular.

Did you read the detail? Because I'd like to see some evidence of where you think this kind of rhetoric is present on Mumsnet.

In the "threat to child safety" section:

"The reviewed literature also revealed a narrative where LGBTI+ people are identified as a threat to children through their supposed ‘predatory behaviour’, and attempts at ‘converting children into sexual perversions’; and finally, societies at large. In this narrative, so-called ‘LGBTI+ behaviours’ constitute a public health risk. The study ‘The European Union as a child molester: sex education on pro-Russian websites’, shows how sex education is vilified, and Russia is portrayed as a saviour of traditional values (Jarkovská 2020). Pro-Russian websites present extreme and manipulated representations of sex education in the EU, and callously exploit fears linked to concerns with sex education in educational systems (Jarkovská 2020). There are several examples of how the educational system is portrayed as a place of unwanted influence. For example, an overview of hate speech in Romania points at fears of children being taught ‘deviance’ (that is, homosexuality) in schools, and how this fear was exploited also in hate speech (Iordache 2015). Stoeckl (2018) reports how the EU is presented by certain media as imposing school curricula that teach masturbation. Sex education is also portrayed as an indicator of something worse to come (such as a general acceptance of so-called deviant sexualities, see Kuhar & Paternotte 2017). In this narrative, the child is seen as being threatened by indoctrination, sexualisation or being exposed to oversexual adults. The image of the innocent and endangered child seems particularly effective in triggering ‘moral panic’. This narrative is also connected to the prerogative of families to raise and educate their children according to their moral and religious beliefs (Kuhar & Paternotte 2017). Henning (2018) finds that the notion of Europeanisation of anti-discrimination policies in the arena of education makes the education system a key battleground."

I have seen absolutely nothing like this on Mumsnet. When Mumsnet users express concerns about child safety, it is generally in relation to children being encouraged to transition when they are too young to understand the consequences of this or give meaningful consent to any medical interventions.

I have seen some specific concerns raised about safeguarding risks inherent in people developing a relationship of trust and confidence with children behind their parents' backs, taking the view that adults who encourage children to keep secrets from their parents generally do not have those children's best interests at heart. I think this is a valid criticism.

I've also seen concerns expressed about specific individuals. I don't think it's fair to say that women who raise concerns about a self confessed paedophile being appointed to the board of trustees of the UK's largest charity for trans identifying children are spreading misinformation or hate about the LGBT+ community. Mermaids should have done some basic safeguarding.

In the "negative othering" section:

"The reviewed literature is rife with reports about various anti-narratives, where LGBTI+ people are given generic and unjust negative labels, where narratives either portray LGBTI+ people as morally corrupted and/or in some way a threat to society. Derogatory labels such as ‘faggot’ or ‘pédé’ (French), ‘maricón’ (Spanish) and ‘Tunte’ (German) are often used, as are statements of mockery through well-known slogans such as ‘homosexuality is an abomination’ and ‘Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve’ (Russell 2019)."

Clearly, saying anything even remotely along these lines would get you banned from Mumsnet quicker than you can say "knife".

In the "gender ideology" section:

"Kuhar and Paternotte (in different combinations and multiple publications) trace a narrative of anti-gender across Europe, using Austria, Belgium, Croatia, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Russia, Slovenia and Spain as case studies. The authors find that actors unite under an umbrella of resistance against what is labelled ‘Gender Ideology’. This so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ is said to permeate and dominate Western liberal democracies in general, and the EU in particular. Kuhar and Paternotte (2017) explain that the term anti-gender captures a general opposition to women’s quest for equality and LGBTI+ rights, which threaten to erode hegemonic masculinity. Opponents to so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ rationalise their opposition by claiming that they combat the destruction of the human race and civilisation, which in their minds are threatened by the expansion of equal rights to women and LGBTI+ people. In their study of the far-right and conservative movements in France, Germany, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia, Kovats & Pöim (2015) find that the term ‘gender’ successfully functions as a ‘symbolic glue’ for those involved. The term ‘Gender Ideology’ is an empty signifier which allows a diverse range of religious and far-right actors to team up to fight women’s equality, sex education and the rights of LGBTI+ people such as same-sex marriage. Hodzic and Bijelic (2014) conclude that fighting sexual and reproductive health and rights in the EU has united a range of different parties. Kuhar and Paternotte (2017) emphasise that opponents are transnationally interconnected, notwithstanding the fact that they proclaim their local embeddedness and support for national sovereignty; their declared aims are fighting against morally corrupt elites- notably represented by the EU and United Nations (UN) - that attempt to ‘colonise’ them by propagating liberal ideals. More recently, also the term ‘LGBT ideology’ has been repeatedly used derogatorily, notably by Polish politicians, to attack and dehumanise LGBTI+ people. (In response, the Commission President Ursula Von der Leyen and others, including the EP, have replied that it is not an ideology, it is an identity).4 Since ‘Gender Ideology’ is a construction by outsiders opposing gender and LGBTI+ equality, in cases where the term is spread intentionally to deceive the public this falls into the category of disinformation. However, it seems from the reviewed literature that many opponents of a ‘Gender Ideology’ actually believe in this as an intentional ‘ideology’, probably mistaking it with ‘Gender Theory’ in feminist studies. The narrative can thus amount to misinformation, but could also provide a fertile ground for foreign sponsored disinformation."

Again, this is absolutely not the prevailing view on Mumsnet, and anyone expressing these types of beliefs would get very short shrift on here.

People on this board do use the term "gender ideology". I disagree with the authors that it is an empty signifier; as far as I am concerned it is shorthand for the belief that people have gender identities which may either align or not align with their biological sex and that it is gender identity, not biological sex, which makes someone a man, woman or something else.

I think that is how most people are using the term on this board.

This section of the paper completely fails to acknowledge that the term "gender ideology" is used by a lot of people, with varying political beliefs and motives, to describe a belief system that they do not share.

I can't see anywhere in this paper where the authors acknowledge that there is a whole bunch of other people who are not fully supportive of "gender ideology", or what the authors might prefer to call "LGBT+ rights", for reasons other than being right wing bigots, Nazis, homophobes, American conservative Christians or Russian bots.

This bunch of other people can be broadly summarised as the silent majority, who have no particular beef with trans people but don't agree that rapists should be housed in women's prisons, that people who were born male should be competing in women's sports, that a person with a penis should be able to use women's changing rooms next to their teenage daughter or elderly mother simply because they "identify as a woman", or that children who play with the wrong kind of toys should be put on puberty blockers.

This is an entirely mainstream view, shared by the majority of people.

So why have the authors of the paper not acknowledged this?

Is it a deliberate omission? Or have they simply failed to talk to anyone outside their own echo chamber, rendering their own research utterly nonsensical?

Either way, suggesting that the themes referred to in the paper are prevalent and tolerated on Mumsnet is absolutely disgraceful.

I'm not linking across threads as it's against MN etiquette and will be deleted.

LGBTQ education - In this narrative, the child is seen as being threatened by indoctrination, sexualisation or being exposed to oversexual adults I've seen numerous posts on here calling for sex education to be reviewed and material relating to gender ID and sexuality to be removed as its encouraging children to think they are trans. The Scottish Youth LGBT threads being an example. I've seen linking of "gender identity " with a widespread concern children are identifying as animals because they've been taught you can identify as what you like. That is the same narrative

"Negative othering" - narratives either portray LGBTI+ people as morally corrupted and/or in some way a threat to society. I've seen repeated posts that trans people are AGP performing a fetish and using women as props. That they will attack women and children and therefore need banning from all single sex spaces for safety. There are posts like that on this thread.

In the "gender ideology" section - This so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ is said to permeate and dominate Western liberal democracies in general
There are repeated references on here to the "ideological capture" of the civil service, and that "the left" can't be trusted. You yourself have said that the current situation is "100% the fault of the left" (the left being a liberal democracy). I've seen other posters amplifying Luz Truss' "deep state infested with trans activists" narratives too.

Disinformation isn't overt hate speech. If it were, it would be easily dealt with by being deleted/prosecuted etc. What happens with disinformation is it influences people by reinforcing their confirmation bias. It moves the "Overton Window". That has clearly happened here.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:20

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2024 11:55

What was she being criticised for?

Associating With the Enemy e.g. GC lite, feminists who refuse to recognise KJK as the rightful leader of the GC kingdom. I think the term used was Left Elite?

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:21

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:16

I'm not linking across threads as it's against MN etiquette and will be deleted.

LGBTQ education - In this narrative, the child is seen as being threatened by indoctrination, sexualisation or being exposed to oversexual adults I've seen numerous posts on here calling for sex education to be reviewed and material relating to gender ID and sexuality to be removed as its encouraging children to think they are trans. The Scottish Youth LGBT threads being an example. I've seen linking of "gender identity " with a widespread concern children are identifying as animals because they've been taught you can identify as what you like. That is the same narrative

"Negative othering" - narratives either portray LGBTI+ people as morally corrupted and/or in some way a threat to society. I've seen repeated posts that trans people are AGP performing a fetish and using women as props. That they will attack women and children and therefore need banning from all single sex spaces for safety. There are posts like that on this thread.

In the "gender ideology" section - This so-called ‘Gender Ideology’ is said to permeate and dominate Western liberal democracies in general
There are repeated references on here to the "ideological capture" of the civil service, and that "the left" can't be trusted. You yourself have said that the current situation is "100% the fault of the left" (the left being a liberal democracy). I've seen other posters amplifying Luz Truss' "deep state infested with trans activists" narratives too.

Disinformation isn't overt hate speech. If it were, it would be easily dealt with by being deleted/prosecuted etc. What happens with disinformation is it influences people by reinforcing their confirmation bias. It moves the "Overton Window". That has clearly happened here.

But what has any of that got to do with the fact that Labour's actions and words are what women can't trust on this issue?

Why not lobby the Labour party to do more to clarify these concerns rather than tell women we are wrong and that we are being played as a tool in a game being played by the Russians and China?

This is starting to come across as really unhinged.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:22

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 11:57

It was something along the lines of perhaps instead of biological women we should be women with cunts.

Very unpleasant and revealing.

Saying women have vaginas is not unpleasant. Perhaps Blossom is reclaiming the word cunt. Like the poster on here who has a derogatory term for female genitalia as their user name.

OP posts:
AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 12:22

This is starting to come across as really unhinged.

That ship sailed a while ago!

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:23

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:20

Associating With the Enemy e.g. GC lite, feminists who refuse to recognise KJK as the rightful leader of the GC kingdom. I think the term used was Left Elite?

Search up purity spirals and you will find it.
Completely ridiculous pile on to a woman for expressing "wrong think" imo

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:24

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:21

But what has any of that got to do with the fact that Labour's actions and words are what women can't trust on this issue?

Why not lobby the Labour party to do more to clarify these concerns rather than tell women we are wrong and that we are being played as a tool in a game being played by the Russians and China?

This is starting to come across as really unhinged.

Sure. That's your opinion. I see plenty I think is unhinged on these threads too. Feel free to take it with a pinch of salt if you don't agree.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:28

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:22

Saying women have vaginas is not unpleasant. Perhaps Blossom is reclaiming the word cunt. Like the poster on here who has a derogatory term for female genitalia as their user name.

oh for heaven's sake.

We are women adam we don't need to be called biological women or women with cunts which was blossoms suggestion that she realised was inappropriate and asked to have removed herself.

We don't need to be distinguished from women with penises because they are not women.

What needs reclaiming is the word woman.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:34

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:28

oh for heaven's sake.

We are women adam we don't need to be called biological women or women with cunts which was blossoms suggestion that she realised was inappropriate and asked to have removed herself.

We don't need to be distinguished from women with penises because they are not women.

What needs reclaiming is the word woman.

I didn't see the post so I can't comment. My interpretation of the words that were written is often very different to yours so I'm sorry, I'm not relying on your third hand info as fact in this case.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:37

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:24

Sure. That's your opinion. I see plenty I think is unhinged on these threads too. Feel free to take it with a pinch of salt if you don't agree.

Which part do you think is unhinged Adam?

That women should stand up for the rights of women and girls to have words to describe ourselves separately from men?

That we should stand up for our girls to have dignity and single sex toilets in schools so that they can be safe and receive appropriate educations without risking utis and school refusal during their periods?

That we should want to ensure that children who are struggling with gender should have appropriate talking therapies to help them rather than those therapies being banned under the guise of 'conversion therapy'?

That we should want our girls to be able to have fair sport and competition away from males?

That we should want rape victims to have single sex rape crisis support?

etc etc,

That we should want any political party that seeks to govern us to respect women enough to address this issue without calling us bigots or saying they don't want our membership?

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:39

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 12:34

I didn't see the post so I can't comment. My interpretation of the words that were written is often very different to yours so I'm sorry, I'm not relying on your third hand info as fact in this case.

Not enough for you that Blossom had her own post removed because she realised it was 'ill judged'.

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 12:58

@LilyBartsHatShop

Are you okay? There's no need to shout.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 13:01

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 12:58

@LilyBartsHatShop

Are you okay? There's no need to shout.

The little bit of shouting seemed reasonable to me.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 13:01

The little bit of shouting seemed reasonable to me.

And me.

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 13:15

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 12:37

Which part do you think is unhinged Adam?

That women should stand up for the rights of women and girls to have words to describe ourselves separately from men?

That we should stand up for our girls to have dignity and single sex toilets in schools so that they can be safe and receive appropriate educations without risking utis and school refusal during their periods?

That we should want to ensure that children who are struggling with gender should have appropriate talking therapies to help them rather than those therapies being banned under the guise of 'conversion therapy'?

That we should want our girls to be able to have fair sport and competition away from males?

That we should want rape victims to have single sex rape crisis support?

etc etc,

That we should want any political party that seeks to govern us to respect women enough to address this issue without calling us bigots or saying they don't want our membership?

The part where posters extrapolate from a short, fairly mild statement and write screeds in response to entirely made up scenarios about what "you" have decided "we" mean.

This post being a case in point.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 13:17

lilybarts shouting post being another point. I find the posts impossible to engage with. Other than to say "noone has said that"

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2024 13:21

AdamRyan · 25/04/2024 13:15

The part where posters extrapolate from a short, fairly mild statement and write screeds in response to entirely made up scenarios about what "you" have decided "we" mean.

This post being a case in point.

So what do you mean Adam?

Bigcoatlady · 25/04/2024 13:22

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 25/04/2024 13:01

The little bit of shouting seemed reasonable to me.

Is it?

I don't know the poster but I appreciate she has personal experience of violence and trauma which is important. But her post seriously distorts my post as well as insulting me. Its offensive and involves shouting. How does that help her further her position. And in the meantime her insults cause me distress - and we don't know that I have not also experienced trauma.

We are all women here with a range of lived experiences. Listening to each other with compassion and respect should be a baseline for participation.

Whilst her distress is understandable its preventing her seeing that I am literally on her side and have put significant effort into ensuring she DID have access to the service she says she wanted - a woman only, trans exclusive provision for victims of DV. I entirely agree with her that this kind of provision is essential for women's safety.

And of course the state should fund this stuff. The coalition government between 2010 and 2015 made successive decisions not to. I don't want to sit on a charity board to get this stuff to happen. But it wouldn't happen if people didn't make it. Perhaps I'm the problem because I was part of the Big Society and without us the food banks, children's holiday schemes, winter shelters, housing projects, baby banks and so forth that are stitching what we used to call the welfare state together would be exposed for the big lie it really is.

NefertitiV · 25/04/2024 13:29

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/04/2024 13:01

The little bit of shouting seemed reasonable to me.

And me.

Well, to me, it simply communicated the poster wasn't in control, so I didn't put as much effort into reading the post as I normally would. Reasoned, considerate discussion from both sides is always better.

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