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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

City of Paris bans posters advertising " Transmania" book criticising transgender ideology. Backfires as book now best seller and controversy being covered in MSM.

115 replies

334bu · 19/04/2024 09:37

This talk show might be of interest to French speaking MNetters, sorry can't find English subtitles.
Paris's virtue signalling seems to have backfired.
https://rmc.bfmtv.com/replay-emissions/les-grandes-gueules/dora-moutot-et-marguerite-stern-face-aux-gg-18-04_VN-202404180455.html

Dora Moutot et Marguerite Stern face aux GG - 18/04

VIDÉO - Aujourd'hui, c'est au tour de Dora Moutot et Marguerite Stern, auteures du livre "Transmania", de faire face aux GG. - L’émission de libre expression sans filtre et sans masque social… Dans les Grandes Gueules, les esprits s’ouvrent et les poin...

https://rmc.bfmtv.com/replay-emissions/les-grandes-gueules/dora-moutot-et-marguerite-stern-face-aux-gg-18-04_VN-202404180455.html

OP posts:
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12
Snowypeaks · 19/04/2024 19:56

Thanks for the clip, HumanBurrito
I'm glad I saw that, I thought they'd finished earlier.
So weird to hear a man's voice insisting "I'm a woman."
The programme discussion is so much more sensible than lots of the mainstream shows over here. Very impressed by all the female contributors and the host.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 20:03

Béatrice is a co-president of a trans association and trans himself, says he has had a vaginoplasty (but still has a very masculine voice!). Apparently he "was" female since age 4-5 in the 1960s. He says he's not an ideologue, that he just wants to live in peace, he's not trying to bother anyone that anyone against trans is just like someone who used to be homophobic and against gay marriage, and also right wing. He thinks the Right wants everyone to be clones and therefore no trans allowed. He says Marguerite and Dora's rhetoric has a violence which saddens him, and he used to be a fan of Marguerite until she became a terf (which she says herself happened about 10 years ago). He rambles a lot which is why people here might have difficulties following him and the presenter eventually interrupts him lol. Interestingly he says there's many more TW than trans men, I wonder if that's true. He also insists on being addressed as Madame. Honestly I was surprised about his age his arguments were things that teenagers say.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 20:08

If anyone would like a specific bit translated just let me know Easter Smile

Snowypeaks · 19/04/2024 20:12

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 20:08

If anyone would like a specific bit translated just let me know Easter Smile

Psst! Psst! Mumsnet FWR here. You want expertise? We got expertise. Anything you want. Any area at all..."

Definitelylivedin · 19/04/2024 20:26

The quickest way to get a book to sell is to ban it. The mayor of Paris has done the closest she could and I thank her for it.

I used to follow Marguerite Stern on twitter (I no longer use it). She is a real force to be reckoned with. She is willing to go the extra mile at the detriment to her own wellbeing and I salute that.

MmePoppySeedDefage · 19/04/2024 20:44

I remember her having some difficulties with TRA a while ago but it looks like she overcame them and came out smiling. A force of nature

WyrdyGrob · 19/04/2024 20:52

Snowypeaks · 19/04/2024 20:12

Psst! Psst! Mumsnet FWR here. You want expertise? We got expertise. Anything you want. Any area at all..."

Pmsl

LoobiJee · 19/04/2024 21:33

UtopiaPlanitia · 19/04/2024 17:26

From the little bit I understood of both callers, and from their demeanour (and that of the studio guests in response) I got the feeling that Operation Laissez-parler was in full effect 😁

The second caller was the mother of a 14yo female child who identifies as trans. She said the child was upset/angry about the show and wanted to counter what had been said but was too upset.

That part of the phone-in became very heated and the mother became very angry after the panellists questioned her or challenged her on the things she had said.

The panel host asked her what she meant by her child behaving like a boy / man and she denied she’d said it. (She had said it.) The mother criticised Marguerite and misrepresented what Marguerite had said when Marguerite was arguing that talking about behaving like a boy was putting limits on what girls could be / do. The mother denied having said the things she’d said, but in the very next breath said her daughter had never worn a skirt from a young age. The mother went on a massive tirade against Marguerite.

The panel host brought it to a close as it was clear that the mother (understandably) wasn’t in a position to discuss this topic.

I found it upsetting to listen to. I got the sense that, if the mother hadn’t been dealing with a child affected by all this, she would have been in full agreement with the panellists. (At one point she said something like this trans ideology is everywhere.) But she was trying to support her child and defend herself from criticism, and therefore (understandably) went on the attack.

The programme up to that point was a great watch, but including the final phonecall was a misjudgement by the researchers/programme as a child was involved, even if they weren’t on the phonecall themself.

I’ll do a separate post on the rest of the discussion.

BlackeyedSusan · 19/04/2024 21:49

HumanBurrito · 19/04/2024 18:33

Not wirking with a publisher with far right links is not equivalent to being silenced. It has never been easier in history to self-publish, for instance. I am on the GC side but I don't think getting into bed with the far right is a good look.

Yeah, because being linked with an ideology that experiments on children by giving them drugs that cause life long harm, sterilises autistic girls and "trans" kids , pushes surgeries that are irreversible and illegal in this country on children and young people before they have fully matured, advocates for rapists and sex offenders to be locked up with vulnerable women, advocates for males to access changing rooms and toilets where female children are changing, disproportionately effects Jewish, Muslim and disabled women is a really good look right? To me that looks racist, ablist, and enabling paedophiles to access children by creating a fucking great hole in safeguarding practices.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 23:34

I agree the second caller was uncomfortable, the mother was really at her breaking point and it escalated into a shouting match so quickly.

It was encouraging to see but I do think the people onscreen were a bit sneery, it would have been more impactful in terms of convincing a wider audience if they had been more neutral.

songaboutjam · 19/04/2024 23:49

The pertinent question is not "how dare the right platform this" but "how has the left gone so badly wrong that it's too afraid to platform this"?

It's like how people shred certain campaigners for children's health and women's sport for going on GB or Fox News, rather than asking "why isn't the mainstream left touching it"?

Also, self publishing puts you at an instant marketing / audience reach disadvantage compared to trad. Speaking as someone who knows indie authors.

thirdfiddle · 20/04/2024 01:04

The killer question: what does it feel like, to feel like a woman? what does it mean, to behave like a boy? Neither caller can answer, they divert with anger.

And we end up with this weird position where the only people who are supposed to know what it feels like to feel like a woman, are those who are not one.

I don't /feel like a woman/, if anything the word feels mighty strange to me. I don't feel grown up at all. I really do not do feminine, that stuff perplexes me greatly. Yet here I am, mum of two, heading fast out of the wrong side of middle aged, ergo, woman.

LoobiJee · 20/04/2024 08:08

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 23:34

I agree the second caller was uncomfortable, the mother was really at her breaking point and it escalated into a shouting match so quickly.

It was encouraging to see but I do think the people onscreen were a bit sneery, it would have been more impactful in terms of convincing a wider audience if they had been more neutral.

Yes, it was really striking how different the style of the programme was, you wouldn’t see anything like that on UK TV on this subject.

Seeing the woman sitting between the two men speak completely freely was so refreshing. But the eye rolling, head shaking, and pursed lips at how ridiculous the whole thing is would be seen as completely undermining your argument on UK TV. I liked the fact that she’d done her research and was able to come back with data in support of the two authors of the book. If I heard correctly she said that 30 girls under the age of 18 had had breast amputation surgery funded by the “secu”.

I’d like to rewatch it because it was a lot to take in, but I found listening to the poor distressed mother too upsetting.

I didn’t understand the point that the male panellist who said he didn’t agree with the second half of the book was making.

HumanBurrito · 20/04/2024 09:36

The far right is currently polling at around 30-32% for the forthcoming elections and has a real chance of getting into power in a couple of years. IMO that makes being published by an editor with far-right links a different proposition than being on GBNews.

Snowypeaks · 20/04/2024 10:34

So, HumanBurrito, a book about the destruction of women's rights should not be published because...? If no left-wing or centrist publishers would touch it Moutot and Stern's MS, what does that tell you? The threat to women's rights comes from the left as much as from the right. If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about this battle.

Maybe centrist and leftist parties should look into why it is that they are not attractive to the people intending to vote for far right parties and try to connect with them in a meaningful way. I'm willing to bet that many of those people are not fascists or dyed-in-the-wool racists.

ArabellaScott · 20/04/2024 10:38

HumanBurrito · 20/04/2024 09:36

The far right is currently polling at around 30-32% for the forthcoming elections and has a real chance of getting into power in a couple of years. IMO that makes being published by an editor with far-right links a different proposition than being on GBNews.

Women's rights must be abandoned in case we somehow are to blame for the rise of the far right. Got it.

HumanBurrito · 20/04/2024 11:17

No-one is saying women's rights should be abandoned ffs. I am saying teaming up with Tommy Robinson to broadcast your message might not be the ideal way to get people on board.

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 20/04/2024 11:18

HumanBurrito · 20/04/2024 09:36

The far right is currently polling at around 30-32% for the forthcoming elections and has a real chance of getting into power in a couple of years. IMO that makes being published by an editor with far-right links a different proposition than being on GBNews.

They've been saying that for decades! Hasn't happened yet.

OldCrone · 20/04/2024 11:21

HumanBurrito · 20/04/2024 11:17

No-one is saying women's rights should be abandoned ffs. I am saying teaming up with Tommy Robinson to broadcast your message might not be the ideal way to get people on board.

What on earth has Tommy Robinson got to do with a French book, published in France by a French publisher?

SinnerBoy · 20/04/2024 11:26

HumanBurrito · Today 09:36

The far right is currently polling at around 30-32% for the forthcoming elections and has a real chance of getting into power in a couple of years.

Sheesh! Are you also against Julie Bindel writing in the Daily Mail? The only paper that will publish her concerns and analysis. The Guardian and Independent have sidelined her and binned Hadley Freeman and Suzanne Moore. Should the just STFU and remain pure and leftie?

This publisher was the only one to agree to publish their book.

Fukuraptor · 20/04/2024 12:57

It's a gift to the right (far or otherwise) for the left to give up reason, freedom of speech and safeguarding giving left and centrist women little place to go.

thirdfiddle · 20/04/2024 13:55

Hey, if a previously far-right publisher is now venturing into publishing leftie feminist books, that's good right? Maybe they'll do more leftie feminist stuff if it sells well, as it seems it is. The nature of the publisher is defined by the nature of the material, not vice versa. And fewer far-right publishers is a good thing, no?

rhywlodes · 20/04/2024 15:56

I didn’t understand the point that the male panellist who said he didn’t agree with the second half of the book was making.
@LoobiJee

He found it less compelling and less data-driven. He thinks they are drawing broad conclusions from anecdote and says it's not because there's one example of men behaving inappropriately at one Pride event that you can tar all pride events with the same brush and talk about a whole ideology. He thinks there are more important fish to fry and gives the example of 1 child in 10 being a victim of incest.*

They reply by pointing out the ubiqitous drag queen stuff and try to point out the patterns they've noticed, but then the conversation gets very 'back and forth' and doesn't really follow a logical path.

The eye rolly woman reminded me of so many French women I have met! I liked her being so forthright and visibly annoyed.

*Does anyone know anything about this?

ArabellaScott · 20/04/2024 16:41

HumanBurrito · 20/04/2024 11:17

No-one is saying women's rights should be abandoned ffs. I am saying teaming up with Tommy Robinson to broadcast your message might not be the ideal way to get people on board.

How does a feminist stop her book being read by the wrong people? How is someone reading your book somehow 'teaming up ' with them?

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