Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

City of Paris bans posters advertising " Transmania" book criticising transgender ideology. Backfires as book now best seller and controversy being covered in MSM.

115 replies

334bu · 19/04/2024 09:37

This talk show might be of interest to French speaking MNetters, sorry can't find English subtitles.
Paris's virtue signalling seems to have backfired.
https://rmc.bfmtv.com/replay-emissions/les-grandes-gueules/dora-moutot-et-marguerite-stern-face-aux-gg-18-04_VN-202404180455.html

Dora Moutot et Marguerite Stern face aux GG - 18/04

VIDÉO - Aujourd'hui, c'est au tour de Dora Moutot et Marguerite Stern, auteures du livre "Transmania", de faire face aux GG. - L’émission de libre expression sans filtre et sans masque social… Dans les Grandes Gueules, les esprits s’ouvrent et les poin...

https://rmc.bfmtv.com/replay-emissions/les-grandes-gueules/dora-moutot-et-marguerite-stern-face-aux-gg-18-04_VN-202404180455.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
RebelliousCow · 20/04/2024 17:03

There was a really good French documentary on Netflix a few years back called 'Petite Fille' about a young boy identifying as a girl ( which largely seemed to revolve around dressing up in 'girly' costumes), very much supported by his mother - who freely admitted that when she was pregnant with him she had been really longing for a girl and was disappointed when the baby was born that he wasn't.

The documentary focused on the fact that there was an issue with the child's primary school - because the teachers were not at all supportive of using pronouns, or socially transitioning him at all - and the mother was fighting this, trying to get them to co-operate. My impression was that they considered it an abusive practice.

You were given the definite impression that the director wanted you to feel that the school was just being 'retro' and bigoted - but what I actually thought was how refreshing and utterly sensibe of the school to refuse to comply in such a way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Girl_(film)

Little Girl (film) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Girl_(film)

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2024 17:23

PriOn1 · 19/04/2024 18:56

Given the appalling news from the US, Sweden and Germany, I’m glad to hear France might be joining Terf Island on the naughty step.

TERF Pays Continental ?

BettyFilous · 20/04/2024 18:12

rhywlodes · 20/04/2024 15:56

I didn’t understand the point that the male panellist who said he didn’t agree with the second half of the book was making.
@LoobiJee

He found it less compelling and less data-driven. He thinks they are drawing broad conclusions from anecdote and says it's not because there's one example of men behaving inappropriately at one Pride event that you can tar all pride events with the same brush and talk about a whole ideology. He thinks there are more important fish to fry and gives the example of 1 child in 10 being a victim of incest.*

They reply by pointing out the ubiqitous drag queen stuff and try to point out the patterns they've noticed, but then the conversation gets very 'back and forth' and doesn't really follow a logical path.

The eye rolly woman reminded me of so many French women I have met! I liked her being so forthright and visibly annoyed.

*Does anyone know anything about this?

I don’t know about France but 1 in 10 adults report experiencing CSA in UK crime surveys on this topic. If I get a chance I’ll dig out the Office for National Statistics report on it. Someone else may already have the link handy.

rhywlodes · 20/04/2024 18:34

Thanks @BettyFilous

The34Bus · 20/04/2024 18:41

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 20:03

Béatrice is a co-president of a trans association and trans himself, says he has had a vaginoplasty (but still has a very masculine voice!). Apparently he "was" female since age 4-5 in the 1960s. He says he's not an ideologue, that he just wants to live in peace, he's not trying to bother anyone that anyone against trans is just like someone who used to be homophobic and against gay marriage, and also right wing. He thinks the Right wants everyone to be clones and therefore no trans allowed. He says Marguerite and Dora's rhetoric has a violence which saddens him, and he used to be a fan of Marguerite until she became a terf (which she says herself happened about 10 years ago). He rambles a lot which is why people here might have difficulties following him and the presenter eventually interrupts him lol. Interestingly he says there's many more TW than trans men, I wonder if that's true. He also insists on being addressed as Madame. Honestly I was surprised about his age his arguments were things that teenagers say.

Probably got mad when she mentioned #AGP.

dapsnotplimsolls · 20/04/2024 21:12

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2024 17:23

TERF Pays Continental ?

Terven Entente Cordiale?

Couci · 20/04/2024 21:25

quizzys · 19/04/2024 19:12

I could only follow bits of it, but enough to show me that the writer and her co panellist (name?) meant business. Everything that has been discussed on here was mentioned, sport, hormone blockers, bodily mutilation (mastectomy) and so on. If only there were subtitles, as I can read French far better than I can understand the spoken word!

Anyway, I wonder does anyone know who the person is in between the two men? As others have said, the mens' body language said it all for me anyway, as I was not able to follow much of what they actually said.

I hope there will be an English version of the book at some stage.

The panellist sitting between the two men is Barbara Lefèbvre, a professor (history, I think) and writer about colonisation, autistic children in school, racism, laicité, among other things.

The woman sitting beside Dora Moutot is the co-author of Transmania, Marguerite Stern.

It sounds to me that the mother in the second call was not so much distressed as rather angry because she felt her and her daughter's intelligence had been questioned (maybe because of the mention of a cult?). Her daughter has identified a boy from the age of 12 and is now 14. The daughter is using a boy's name, but apparently she and her mother have agreed that there will be no medication or surgery before she turns 18. Seems to me rather intelligent on the mother's part.

Thank you, OP, for posting about this. I hadn't heard about the book, but will try to get a copy.

InvisibleBuffy · 21/04/2024 08:30

As far as 'links to the far right' goes, I'm pretty sure that I could find a book from pretty much every mainstream publisher by an author who is deeply conservative and has conflicting values to me.
We should be judging the book by the book, not the publisher.
It's also worth noting that 'far right' simply means 'someone I disagree with' to trans activists.
It lost a lot of meaning when I started seeing staunch left wing feminists being called far right without any basis in reality.
I'm tired of seeing people dismissed due to a label they are given by their opposition. That's part of the reason we're in this mess and why this book was supposedly taken down without anyone actually reading it.
It's long past time we started debating ideas and books on what is actually being said, rather than some kind of hazy guilt by association.

FrancescaContini · 21/04/2024 08:33

SinnerBoy · 19/04/2024 09:41

It's like banning records, isn't it? They all hit the top ten!

Yes! Haven’t they learned their lesson from Frankie’s Relax?

Allez, les femmes francaises!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 09:03

Ingenieur · 19/04/2024 16:41

D'accord! I humbly accept that my acquaintances in France aren't wholly representitive of their countrymen, but there definitely isn't the same kind of TWAW, thought-termination that there is in the UK.

It is worrying that TRA violence is increasing, hopefully that can be stopped before "decapitate TERFs" makes its way there...

Edited

No, my experience is the same.

I'd say that to begin with, France just isn't awash with the same kind of "TWAW and if you disagree you're an awful bigot" rhetoric which we see everywhere in English speaking countries. Perhaps I am slightly insulated from it because I don't have teenagers and this stuff isn't very present in the industry where I work, but I just don't encounter it very often in my daily life.

I work for a very large multinational which is quite shiny and corporate, albeit in a traditionally male dominated sector which is very much grounded in physical reality. When there are events focusing on diversity and inclusion, they almost always focus either on women or on disabilities. Even during Pride there is precious little about LGBT+.

I have a male colleague who is gay. He recently "came out" to me in a very casual way, at a housewarming party, by referring to his ex boyfriend. We'd known each other for about 3 years by this point and I suspected he might be gay but we had never discussed it before.

My colleagues are mostly quite young, in their 20s and 30s. Nobody has pronouns in their email signatures or rainbow lanyards. I have no reason to believe any of them are prejudiced against LGBT+ people, but it just doesn't come up in conversation.

I have discussed trans issues with a couple of my colleagues, including a younger woman in her early 30s who mentioned that an old schoolmate of hers has transitioned and is now a man. I said that her old schoolmate still remains a woman biologically speaking, regardless of how they identify. She didn't contradict me and it changed nothing about our working relationship or our friendship.

The pronoun thing is a bit of a damp squib because despite being such a heavily gendered language, often the gender you are using has no relevance to the person you are discussing anyway, e.g. possessive pronouns are gendered according to the thing being possessed not the person doing the possessing, and even the most educated people make "fautes d'accord" from time to time anyway. "Iel" is in reality pretty much indistinguishable from "il".

And of course the healthcare system is following on from the NHS and the Scandinavian countries in clamping down on puberty blockers.

So yes, there is trans activism here but I think it is far more niche.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 09:22

Fukuraptor · 20/04/2024 12:57

It's a gift to the right (far or otherwise) for the left to give up reason, freedom of speech and safeguarding giving left and centrist women little place to go.

This.

The left is forcing feminists out.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 22/04/2024 09:26

InvisibleBuffy · 21/04/2024 08:30

As far as 'links to the far right' goes, I'm pretty sure that I could find a book from pretty much every mainstream publisher by an author who is deeply conservative and has conflicting values to me.
We should be judging the book by the book, not the publisher.
It's also worth noting that 'far right' simply means 'someone I disagree with' to trans activists.
It lost a lot of meaning when I started seeing staunch left wing feminists being called far right without any basis in reality.
I'm tired of seeing people dismissed due to a label they are given by their opposition. That's part of the reason we're in this mess and why this book was supposedly taken down without anyone actually reading it.
It's long past time we started debating ideas and books on what is actually being said, rather than some kind of hazy guilt by association.

Biteback Publishing publishes both Nigel Farage and Angela Eagle, for example.

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2024 10:56

MissScarletInTheBallroom · Today 09:26

Biteback Publishing publishes both Nigel Farage and Angela Eagle, for example.

Wow! Who knew that Frogface Farridge was such a terrible old socialist?

FrancescaContini · 22/04/2024 17:28

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 19/04/2024 23:34

I agree the second caller was uncomfortable, the mother was really at her breaking point and it escalated into a shouting match so quickly.

It was encouraging to see but I do think the people onscreen were a bit sneery, it would have been more impactful in terms of convincing a wider audience if they had been more neutral.

It is fine for them to sneer at a man claiming to “feel like a woman” if that’s their reaction. Why should they appear “neutral” on a subject they clearly feel very passionately about?

MyPearlViper · 29/04/2024 06:36

I have started translating it.

Part One: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cFkc1XLZC-1X8MhZzPI4Vd-1Eopd69II1BWHdgAR_w0/edit?usp=sharing

Part Two: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zr-92QzqhhImJzwWNJCL4LQSJ7iArW65wwEb8YXuiEg/edit?usp=sharing

Part Three: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KfeNCDTLPkFOplyOPcHvTnDbDfG3ODYfWAd1yQmhrZE/edit?usp=sharing

This is only the first 35 pages of a 350 page book, but I'll keep going.

(I'm doing it as a labour of love, if anyone is in touch with Marguerite or Dora or their publishers, I want to be very clear that I'm not looking for money for this!)

Trans Mania Translated Part 3

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KfeNCDTLPkFOplyOPcHvTnDbDfG3ODYfWAd1yQmhrZE/edit?usp=sharing

Snowypeaks · 29/04/2024 06:42

Very public spirited of you!

You should probably check with the publisher first, because you might be infringing copyright (and causing problems for Mumsnet) or contravening the law in some other way. Or just messing up the publisher's plans for translation.

Snowypeaks · 29/04/2024 06:43

Forgot to tag @MyPearlViper in the post above.

MyPearlViper · 29/04/2024 07:12

Thanks, I did do some research and they can't find an English language publisher willing to take it on, apparently. Imagine that!

So my plan is: circulate the first 1/10th of the book, and hope someone will read it and be bold enough to publish. My translation or someone else's.

But if a lawyer wants me to take it down, I will, of course

Snowypeaks · 29/04/2024 07:18

Oh, well in that case, I'm
looking forward to each instalment! And thanks so much. I doubt any lawyer will be on to you if you have the publisher's permission. I'd still give Mumsnet a heads up, though.

fromorbit · 29/04/2024 10:51

MyPearlViper · 29/04/2024 07:12

Thanks, I did do some research and they can't find an English language publisher willing to take it on, apparently. Imagine that!

So my plan is: circulate the first 1/10th of the book, and hope someone will read it and be bold enough to publish. My translation or someone else's.

But if a lawyer wants me to take it down, I will, of course

Edited

My suggestion is you continue with a chapter or two and then see if Swift Press is interested.

They published Time to Think by Hannah Barnes / When Kids Say They’re Trans / Gay Shame by Gareth Roberts / Irreversible Damage
https://swiftpress.com/

Very much their kind of thing. Be good to get it in the shops.

Also Eye Books Published Graham Linehan and Simon Edge
https://www.eye-books.com/

Welcome | Swift Press

Swift Press is an award-winning independent publishing company that launched in June 2020. Part of the Independent Alliance, we publish fiction and a wide range of non-fiction.

https://swiftpress.com

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 29/04/2024 10:56

Was their failure to find an English publisher before or after the book got to number 1 in France? If it was before they might well be giving it another go.

334bu · 29/04/2024 18:13

Also a best seller in FNAC despite sales staff resistance.

OP posts: