There's nothing I can do about this, is there?

[Acunningruse]

Visited a different city today for work and went to a branch of Caffè Nero. I was served by what was very clearly a man, despite his attempt to look female and the fact he was wearing a she/her badge. Said man was wearing extremely tight leggings which, as he was wearing a waist-length t-shirt, meant his manhood was obviously visible. His appearance was a source of mumbling/muttering in the queue and he seemed to be enjoying the attention with a lot of hair-flicking.

I m not able to articulate why this made me so uncomfortable- other than the fact that no way in hell would I want to share a bathroom or changing room with this person.

But there's nothing at all to be done, is there? As any objection would surely be met with accusations of "discrimination " and "be kind".

Just so so frustrating. I just wanted to scream "you are not a woman!!!!" But I can't, can I.

Make sure you are very clear that his full genitalia is clearly visible, don’t expect the email recipient to read between the lines.
Include explanations of how it feels, deliberately provocative, sexual harassment, fitishism or whatever

People who correlate cross dressing with being a sexual predator tend to be trans phobic…just to mention a different correlation.

what’s considered “pharaphilia” is culturally determined and varies frkm
county to country, we are not exactly talking about medical science here, folks.

Obviously psychology and criminology are not a measurable sciences. But the link between cross dressing and other paraphilias has been recognised by psychologists, criminologists and crime profilers for over two decades.

Folks.

My point was that 200 years ago women wearing trousers wasn’t acceptable. Norms change over time. Maybe it will take 200 years for the norms on men’s clothes to change too..maybe they won’t change. My point was there is nothing innate or natural about dress styles. Men in Arab countries wear robes etc etc, it’s all determined by culture (which changes over time).

lol, I have finally revealed myself as firmly not middle England , the horror!

Christ on a bike Goldfish, if you want to ogle a young man's cock whilst sipping a nice cuppa, go the heck ahead. The OP is uncomfortable about it, it's outwith social norms because there's a flimsy bit of fabric between her and a male exposing himself to her and other customers, and you're comparing it to the swathes of fabric worn by men in many countries.
You're a little bit scary.

Not quite sure why Goldfish keeps saying he's wearing tights as the OP clearly said leggings.

Middle England ?? Don't misländer me.

Look @Goldfishonabike you said, I'm paraphrasing, that we middle-aged (and it seems middle-English) boring women are completely left behind by the oh so much more progressive younger generation. My point was that most of us grew up with men wearing make up and wearing not particularly manly clothes and it was fine, we didn't have to claim that made them women, it was just men wearing what they wanted. Now that somehow makes them women because it seems, those progressive kids can't imagine a man would wear makeup and a skirt unless he actually was a woman. That's not progress, that is clinging to sex stereotypes.

Marilyn, David Sylvian, Steve Jansen, Steve Strange, Phil Oakey.....gorgeous gorgeous men in lace, eyeliner, and lippy.

Oooooh me beating heart, those were the days....swoon....

Yes but Phil Oakley wasn’t wanting to be a she/her. How you dress is one thing and you can whatever flair you like but you ain’t female because of it. The muttering you mentioned from customers was not positive and or they found it funny. So he hasn’t achieved much out of it…unless you want to be a figure of fun.

Hair flicking how pathetic. It’s like some who has loo roll hanging out of them inadvertently after they have visited the toilets, thinking ppl are looking admiringly at them.

Crossdressing is the most common paraphilia of sex offenders.

OP has explained very clearly the basis of their post. I know plenty of transwomen. Their body language, demeanor etc don't bother most women. The transwoman who used to serve at a local cafe never rang any alarm bells, absolutely fine, normal dress and behaviours but heads down and shy. I felt for them and I thought they were brave. I've seen other men dressed in a feminine way where immediately there is discomfort because they are 'off', big fake breasts, aggressive demeanor.

We are, most of us, finely tuned at sensing . We take in vast amounts of information about our environment and other people that we are barely conscious of. Spotting the cues that something isn't right is one of them. Display of male genitalia is aggressive and challenging. If you are posting in good faith and think it was done accidentally, well more fool you.

Guyliner is very sexy.

Goldfish obviously doesn't realise that lots of us here are gender non conforming.

Always good to perv watch this

Bumping this so the OP can get a few more suggestions for her email.

We're surrounded by Costas here but I'm passing a Caffe Nero on Saturday. I wouldn't normally call there but I'm wondering if this man works there. Maybe Caffe Nero needs a few complaints before they take this as seriously as it should be.

I assume you’re parking in good faith too, so please think about biases. Biases cloud all our judgments and perceptions massively. To in all seriousness argue that you can “sense” if someone is likely to be sexually aggressive and a potential physical risk to you, to the point of complaining over this person to management, is completely neglecting the obvious negative bias of the OP towards trans women.

Who has said that younger people can only wear traditionally female clothes without wanting to identify as women? Of course they can and do! It’s just that the spectrum of acceptability has widened now, and whereas in the 80ies, it was ok to dress in traditionally female clothes as a man, but not ok to be transgender (and to a larger extent not ok to be gay either, yet) it’s now both ok to be transgender and cross dressing/gender fluid.

Lets not forget it was a trans lady in leggings with a very visible princess wand which cost Nicola Sturgeon her political career.

it’s now both ok to be transgender and cross dressing/gender fluid.
You do realize this only makes sense if you actually believe that there is such a thing as sex/gender specific clothes? Without it there would be no cross dressing, it would just be dressing.
I don't know how old you are but listening to my teenagers (and we are a famously talkative and combative family), one of them in 2nd year at university, I can tell you that this is over. This cohort is all for dress how you want but don't claim you are a sex you are not. None of their friends have special pronouns anymore, some like my 19 year old never had. You look rather dated to many of them.

Basically the waist down in this picture is the attire the op is complaining about.

Those who are saying that it is just an individual in tight trousers, whats the problem? - imagine you are sitting at a table and the server comes past - where do you think your eye line is.

Do you really think this image is suitable in a family environment?

Surely someone with gender dysphoria would be trying to hide their maleness - not make it look more prominent. That tips it into exhibitionism

Lol, I’m not in the business of denying that there are certain current culturally established norms, such as some clothes is seen as masculine and some as feminine. What I’m saying is, some people are working to change these norms, transgender people among them.

so bass on your experience with your teenage kids, is a your perception that transgender is a thing of the past now? In this case, what’s anyone worried about ; ) jokes aside, that’s not my impression. I don’t know wheee you live but these trends are different to different
locations. I also think that the shortlived spike of transgender being really hot is going away now, but Im not under the impression transgender is going away, it’s more that it’s perhaps stabilizing at a level where only people who truly
feel this way embrace it, not every other teenager who wants to be trendy. But hopefully the tolerance level of the overall teenage population towards transgender people have gone up as a result of the short lived former trend.

Trans people are not trying to change the norm for clothes being masculine and feminine. They are very firmly putting clothes in those boxes so that they can say 'look at me, I am clearly a woman as I am wearing a dress'.

Little boys who play with dolls and want to dress up in a princess dress are asked if they are really a girl as those are girl things.

Transgenderism needs boxes and sexist stereotypes, without them there isn't a way to be trans. If society didn't care that men wore dresses, how would a transwoman be any different to a man that wears a dress?

It's not about whether this individual is trans identified or not, to me.

Its about genitals being exposed and flaunted in an inappropriate setting.

In a club? Go for it.

At work? No. There are standards of behaviour that society accepts and those vary with culture, climate, faith, etc. In some cultures, penis sheaths are ceremonial wear and accepted in those circumstances. I don't expect to see them on the bus to work, even in Papua New Guinea.

I accept that part of being young is about trying to differentiate yourself from your parents generation, but indecent exposure is indecent exposure, and is still a criminal offence. Context is everything. In a cafe, it's indecent exposure.

Goldfish, you're just like the staff at Wi-spa who told the little girl she shouldn't be looking at the naked penis. You've got some backward thinking going on there, and I repeat - you're a little scary. You people actually walk amongst us.

on this thread I’ve been accused of being a man, being not a genuine mumsnet poster and now being called scary! If it wasn’t so prejudiced, I’d find it funny.

I assure you I’m a middle aged mum working in an office and in a bog standard heterosexual marriage, this is the first time I’ve been called scary 😅 except for by my kids maybe, when I tell them for the 50th time it’s time to go to bed.

if Nero man’s clothing amounted to indecent exposure, the OP can call the police and have him arrested. As she hasn’t done that, and no one else has, assume his attire doesn’t amount to that.

So you see transgender people as bulwarks of the patriarchy? Oooookay