Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

Oh dear, OP has gone quiet. Maybe rethinking advocating an ideology that marginalises the already marginalised. Not quite so cool or superior now.

Boomer here. Unsurprising intensely gender critical. Also a scientist. Humans cannot change sex. Shoot me. What goes around will come around. Eventually and with a lot of casualties.

I don't think men should compete in female sports.

I think the existing evidence on puberty blockers should preclude them from being used until it can be shown that the know risks are outweighed by the clearly demonstrated bemefits, when compared with other approaches. We are a long way from this.

Do you believe humans can change sex?

If sex and gender are different things, why do you think sex should replace gender? Is there not room for both?

Why do you think sex or gender should be recorded on passports, birth certificates, school registers, police records?

Do you think males and females should be treated equally?

Do you think that women identify into lower paid jobs, a lesser share of power, share of voice and share of wealth in the world?

Do you believe it is possible for the global female population to identify out of relative poverty, of being victims of sexual violence, out of an unequal representation in government, in the higher levels of companies, in the legal and economic structures of the countries they live in and into equal share of global wealth? Do you believe that such equality should be an ideal that humamkind should strive towards or do you believe that women and girls should accept these structural inequalities which fall largely along the male / female divide? If there were no recording / reporting of sex, do you believe the reality would be different?

Do you think that females who show no interest in make up, dresses or traditional female pursuits or careers are trans and if not, why are we telling young girls and young boys that this might be the case?

Why do you think toilets / prisons / changing rooms are segregated by sex? Why do you think females feel vulnerable in a state of undress in the presence of males, even if that individual has never and will never attach them? Should they have to live with those feelings of vulnerability when segregation by sex makes them feel safe?

Age has nothing to do with it...science has everything to do with it. I'm sorry if millennials and gen z have been told false info or don't have the comprehension to understand biological reality

"All you need to ask yourself now is why you're bothered about women's sport but not more serious issues such as women not having access to single sex rape crisis support, or male rapists being housed in women's prisons".

Good question. Presumably the OP is one of those old fashioned thinkers who sees women as support humans? Must always be available, preferably undressed in a changing room if a man who thinks he's a woman requires validation?
No agency. no right to boundaries, no privacy from the male gaze or dignity.

Just another support human.

I think the idea that being gender critical means you’re anti-trans rights is a fallacy. People like to portray gender critical women as bigoted, frumpy, middle aged “Karens”, similar to how feminists were portrayed as not shaving their armpits and burning their bras in the eighties.

The problem is there is no nuance to the discussion which means most people are afraid to say what they really think.

I (33 year old millennial) think people should be free to be who they want to be, as long as it isn’t at the expense of others. So, we should respect people’s pro-nouns and the name they choose to use. We should fight against discrimination and violence against trans people. But not at a cost of discrimination and violence against women. We still need to protect women only spaces, in a way that also maintains the dignity of trans people. Gender neutral toilets is a great example. Third “open” categories in sports is another.

Most gender critical people want trans people to live safe, dignified, happy lives and recognise that that doesn’t need to be at the expense of women’s rights. Unfortunately, in my experience, some trans activists see the “not at the expense of women’s rights” part as anti trans. For example, at my work the provision of gender neutral toilets + the right of those with GRC to use the toilet of their recognised gender isn’t enough and they’ve introduced a policy so that anyone can self ID to use the Women’s toilets. Surely, the option of a gender neutral toilet for those without a GRC, means everyone has a space they can feel safe and comfortable, so why reduce women’s safety and comfort in the name of “trans rights”?

I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events

@Inauthentic So in your opinion women are allowed single sex sports but not;

Prisons, including shared cells and showers
Psychiatric wards
Hospital wards
Domestic abuse shelters

Why do you think sports can be single sex, but not dormitories where women are sleeping?

I'm Gen X. I have a Millennial son and a Gen Z son. All firmly gender critical, as are most people who have an ounce of intelligence and common sense.

Certain groups of human beings have a tendency to jump on the latest bandwagon, and so it is with those who insist that 'transwomen are women'. At some point, I believe sooner rather than later, this latest craze will fade and another will take its place. No doubt the TRAs will leap happily, lemmingly, onto that bandwagon too.

The young adults ( under 21) in this house think the trans borg is a load of crap. Luckily the teaching of PHSE is their school was quite balanced so they have been able to make up their own mind, but mainly it’s been the attention seeking antics of they themmy types at school that has made them such eye rolly little cynics 😂 They think men are men, women are women, gay and lesbian people are no big deal and boringly fine (couple of teachers in same sex marriages, kids really don’t care about this anymore).
Gender identity is something older people pretend to care about to try and look relevant it’s so cringe…

Brilliantly expressed; nuanced and accurate, and factually correct. As much as I may wish to be the Queen of Sheeba, I'm not, and no amount of pretending or role playing will make it so.

As much as a man wishes to change sex he can't. However if he wishes to be know as Miss or dress in a reductive way, I don't want my children to loose their ability to be polite AND to express their loved and real reality before their eyes.

I am also an older poster. And I didn't vote for Brexit either. I was 13 in 1980 so didn't buy a house in the 1970s, and as a public sector worker I also have a shit pension.

But I do not and will not accept that men, no matter how they decide to identify, are women. Ever. They are men. You can accept them as women if you like, but I will not. That is your choice, and it is mine to say no. They can dress how they please, have relations with whoever will have them but I do not want them in female changing rooms, toilets, female hospital wards or in women's prisons.

I find the overwhelming focus on 'rights' to be concerning. As pointed out on this, and hundreds of other similar threads, there is no 'right' to require people to pretend that they view someone with a trans identity the same way as the they view themselves.

Why aren't those who are advocating for trans people focussing on evidenced based impacts on quality of life (relationships, work, money, health, leisure etc.). Obsessing about other people complying with expectations to affirm someone's identity is doing very little to help trans people. We keep hearing that trans people are the most oppressed group. Perhaps they need to be supported to feel able to engage in work, relationships and leisure activities without requiring people to affirm their identities. Perhaps they can be supported to recognise that most people are happy to co-exist peacefully and harmoniously with them, so long as they aren't required to pretend they think they are of the opposite sex. Most people have no problem with their choice of name, clothes, accessories and preferences.

TRAs set unrealistic and unacceptable expectations of the population at large. It is the older generations who have the experience and confidence to say no.

I find the overwhelming focus on 'rights' to be concerning. As pointed out on this, and hundreds of other similar threads, there is no 'right' to require people to pretend that they view someone with a trans identity the same way as the they view themselves.

This. The use of the word "rights" is incredibly loaded here.

There is a bit of parallel there, in my opinion.

Some people use biological attributes (for example penis) as an only indication of how the person should identify.

In the past many people used an argument that homosexuality is not natural. A men with penis shouldn't desire another man because it's against biology?

Similarly, biologically it doesn't make sense that a man with penis can identify/ desire to be a woman?

A few questions:

I'm assuming by 'support trans rights' you mean pro self-ID and the demand to be seen and recorded as the sex / gender you claim to be?

Do you think generational views are cohort-based or lifecycle based? (To use a Victoria Smith phrase). That is to say - will Gen Z grow out of these views as they mature just as the radical baby boomers of the 60s became more conservative as they aged?

Relatedly, people are old for a lot longer than they are young and we are an ageing society so do you think that these 'pro-trans' views will retreat into a minority as Gen Z ages - especially as medical transition has a serious impact on fertility?

There's a significant amount of evidence that Gen Z/late millennial are more sexist and misogynistic than Gen X / millennial / 2nd wave BBs so what do you mean by becoming more 'inclusive'?

Edited to say you didn't talk about brexit but someone else did and I'm interested:

Also do you think more young people (64% turnout) should have voted in 2016 instead of complaining afterwards that the Brexit vote was skewed by older people (90% turnout)?

I may think you're prejudiced also and bigoted, but I am able to let you and others express their opinions without being personal or diminishing their thoughts and expressions - the market place of ideas is where philosophy began, and the world was better for it. Shame you can't allow space for others to query, and have a nuanced discussion. I have taught my children 19 and 15 to be critical thinkers, and not parrot the unfiltered venom from TRA's towards women such as myself, to my lesbian friends, to my gay guy friends, or to Kirsty (formerly Kevin) who also feels the 'uncommitted' as she calls them, ergo those who still bear their penis- access to female loos etc.

Perhaps you can read, evaluate and enjoy the discussion? Or not. That is your choice, and right, as it is every woman on here's right to freely express a view without being labelled negatively.

" older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

No. we don't 'show resistance to trans rights likely intimidated by the speed of social change."'

We are probably the most liberal and least brainwashed segment of society.

We've grown up in the 60s and 70s and 80s when people of both sexes presented themselves as they wanted against current gender stereotypes ......

Marlene Dietrich , Hell's Angels, Mods and Rockers, David Bowie, Boy George Marc Bolan, Sweet, Elton John, Marilyn, Kiss, Alice Cooper, Annie Lennox, Pete Burns .... to name but a few .........

We know that every generation wants to rebel against stereotypes and wants to express themselves - to find the self they're comfortable living as and being.

Every single generation has always been aware that, in expessing themselves they are not - and cannot - change their sex.

Nothing wrong in expressing yourself! Something wrong in encouraging people to believe they can change biology

Some people use biological attributes (for example penis) as an only indication of how the person should identify.

People can "identify" however they like, but essentially it's meaningless in terms of their sex. If you have a penis you're male.

@Inauthentic Similarly, biologically it doesn't make sense that a man with penis can identify/ desire to be a woman?

I wish someone could actually explain what it actually means to 'identify/desire to be a woman.

What does being a woman feel like??

I’m 34. People cannot change their sex. They can change their appearance but will never be able to change sex.

My friends of similar ages all agree.
My younger cousins (22 - 26) agree.
My niece and my nephews (12 - 17) agree
Dr Robert Winston, Professor of Science, Emeritus Professor of Fertility Studies, also agrees.

The OPs original question was taken from a Forbes article.

What does being a gay feel like?

Do you believe that another man can desire another man or does he need to provide some kind of proof so that he can identify as a gay?

Forget the external attributes, there are apparently around 30 trillion cells in a body that all know and behave according to their sex, if they without a brain know, there must be something in it statistically can't all be wrong.

What does being a woman feel like??

The $64,000 question.

I’d love to see an answer that didn’t rely on stereotypes and circularity.

Some people use biological attributes (for example penis) as an only indication of how the person should identify.

For many of us and for most of the time, how you identify is irrelevant. It matters when our rights are impacted.
When sex matters, facilities are provided on the basis of sex. Why should you have the right to remove those facilities from the people who are still using them?

What does a homosexual feel like?

Why is that relevant to me? How does someone being attracted to the same sex affect me?