Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

I support rights of trans women to use toilets, get married, have families, present as women in their day to day life and be referred to as whatever name and pronoun they desire - these are basic rights

I don't think even the most TERFY TERF on TERF island has suggested that trans women shouldn't be allowed to use toilets. There is zero objection to them using male toilets or unisex toilets but why would it be a basic right to use spaces specifically for a class you are not part of?

How you cope with the dissonance in your family life is up to you. There is little you can do but hang on for the ride really.

However, it is just as important to acknowledge that sex doesn't change for the use of single sex spaces etc just because someone has surgery.

Every cell in their body will still be either male or female though, surgery won't alter that at all.

I can't think of anything much more harsh than waking up after genital surgery and regretting it, tbh.

In my case, I love my son and always will. I do not support him in demanding that everyone sees him as “a woman”. He is relatively delicately featured for a man, but it is instantly obvious that he is a man. I do not support him in his wish to take oestrogen - I think he is naive about the effects, and naive about how carefully doctors will inform him. I do not support him in demanding that everyone refers to him by his “preferred” name and pronouns - I believe they cement an unhealthy way of thinking about himself.

I also fear that he is being led into an unhealthily self centred worldview, one in which he has a right to hormonal treatments and body modifications, one in which anyone who disagrees with him is a bigot (this never used to be his thinking), and one in which his nuclear and wider family no longer matter. I fear that he will find out the hard way that his newfound friends do not have his best interests at heart, and that they will at some point drop him, breaking his heart and leaving him to crawl back home in despair to his family who will never give up on him.

I would not expect anyone to accept my SS as a male and he does not expect anyone to accept him as a male.
He is living as a man but consciously chooses not to use male or female changing rooms. He doesn’t get offended if people refer to his previous name.
I would not expect to an intact male in a female only area and vice versa.
It is my own personal opinion that if someone has fully transitioned then I would necessarily have an issue sharing a space with them.

did you have difficulty understanding this part?

When people say trans rights, what they mean is the right for trans people to exist without fear of being harassed, from violence or discrimination.
Its about being able to live their lives with the same respect as afforded to others.

or are they rights not afforded to women? especially older ones.

Are you asking because you don’t know or just to have a go?
Transitioning obviously involves living as a woman in society. Which seems to be the issue here.
As I’ve said previously, I personally don’t think anyone has an automatic right to enter same sex spaces. I wouldn’t have an issue with a fully transitioned woman but appreciate I only speak for myself. I would have an issue with a transgender entering women only spaces when they still have a penis.

Something I have been pondering, which you don't see a lot of on here, is what views men have of "transmen". Obviously TERFs are women who have problems with men pretending to be women and infringing our spaces and rights. And we are well aware that the TRA movement is a men's rights movement. But are there any equivalent views among men about "transmen", and do men see them as part of the women's rights movement (and therefore a potential threat)?

Now if course if men find a woman in their changing room pretending to be a man, it's not going to be exactly the same as the other way round. By and large I imagine they would not fear the woman may stare at them, film them, or sexually assault them or their sons. (Although, would most men be happy about getting changed next to a woman they don't know? Obviously some absolutely would).

But TERFS of course have many other types of problems with the behaviour of "transwomen", as expressed all the time on here. For example, the religious women who are excluded from a space because now there are men there. Is there a male equivalent? Or the fact that many of us are offended by the fact of men "performing" femininity in a particular, often openly mocking, way? Any men having equivalent negative reaction to women "performing" masculinity? Would men have any thoughts about a prize for "best man" in some field being given to a woman (e.g. best actor at the Oscars etc)?

Obviously women taking part in men's sports pose no threat to them, so I don't suppose that would cause any worries, if it ever happens, which I have not heard of. (I do imagine that many, although not all, male boxers would object to finding they are expected to smash a woman in the face to advance in their sport, but I don't suppose that has ever happened?)

Men tell lesbians they must accept their lady dick. Are there any gay men being told they must accept a manly vagina or risk being called a Nazi?

(don’t bother coming at me, I won’t engage)

big surprise there. Really.

If a 6'4" guy has surgically transitioned he will almost certainly still 'read' as male to someone observing him regardless of what he is wearing, unless he is fully naked they will have no idea whether he has penis or not. Why should rape survivors have to face that scenario in a women's changing room, hospital ward or prison.
We are very good at identifying people by their sex and surgery doesn't change that.
Believe it or not I have a great deal of sympathy for people who feel they don't belong in their body (for whatever reason) and for their families but that sympathy doesn't over ride the rights of women. I hope your step child is able to find a path through life that brings them happiness.

Imagine being an adult and still living in this kind of bubble!

As I said, I wouldn’t have an issue with it. I’d rather be on a hospital ward with a 6.4 fully transitioned female than one who still had a penis.
My best friend doesn’t agree with me either due to her own personal experience. I totally understand her pov. I also worry about Muslim women too they must be very wary in female only spaces.
I do think the only solution is men only women only and gender neutral spaces.

It tells me that they know what they are saying is incorrect, but they're in too deep to get out. Sad really.

As I said, I wouldn’t have an issue with it. I’d rather be on a hospital ward with a 6.4 fully transitioned female than one who still had a penis.

I'm wondering about the logic of that. Are you under the impression that all sexual harassment, violence and assault on women by men requires a penis? Or that removal of a penis necessarily magically removes all desire in any male to mistreat or harrass women?

But when you walk into a women's changing room and there is what your brain tells you is a man standing next to you wrapped in a towel you can't know if he has had genital surgery so how can you possibly know if you are happy for them to be there or not? You've said they shouldn't be there pre op but how can you tell if they are pre or post op?

How does one "live as a woman in society"?

For example, the religious women who are excluded from a space because now there are men there. Is there a male equivalent?

I guess one test would be if a Hassidic (sp, sorry) Jewish man would choose to sit next to a trans woman or a trans man if required to on a plane. This is not an experiment i would like to see IRL. I am assuming that devoutly religious people (I know a young Christian man who has very clear ideas about women's bodies) of many religions don't want to be confronted by people of the opposite sex, whether they declare them to be trans or not. I'm not sure where the various religions stand on these things.

I can see that you have a personal line drawn here. However, there really is a need for female people to have spaces away from male people even if they no longer have a penis.

For instance, removal of a penis does not change that male person's ability to cause serious injury to a female person. They still have a significantly higher grip strength, one that is likely to be higher than 90% of all female people's grip strength. And punch power is the same. And height remains undiminished.

There is also no evidence as yet that a male person at any stage of transition has a lower rate of committing a sex crime as any other male person in the UK. Indeed, a male called Sarah Baker called for all women who disagreed with Baker to be 'punched in the face'. So, while I understand this is your personal line, I say this so that perhaps you understand why others will not agree with you.

Also, female people use toilets for more than just 'peeing'. When my child was a baby, I regularly had to have the door jammed open by the pushchair while I dealt with flooding periods. I would have been horrified to have seen a male walk past. It was bad enough knowing the female people could see me, but at least I knew that some of them very likely had been in a similar situation.

Also I have had to clean my shirt and other clothes for numerous reasons, including breast milk explosions, or just a drink.

And of course female people are highly likely to reliably sex a male person. Even one with their cock and balls removed. Just by seeing them move and hearing their voice. Plus looking at their facial proportions as well as their skeletal proportions.

So, as others have pointed out, why does any female need to accept a male in their space? Where do you draw the line? Prisons? Shelters?

Again, I understand that you have stated your line in the sand, so this is just some reasons why I don't agree and I think others are not too dissimilar.

I started a poll once and the overwhelming number of people (and there were a LOT of responses, because absolutely nothing gets people more fired up here than trans issues) said they did not believe that trans women are women

Why should they? Do you actually have an any argument at all?

you may call it mysogynistic, but hell, aint that the truth

Even your post thats supposed to disagree with the premise is full of statements that are based upon womens fuckability and keeping themselves looking young.

What you dont seem to realise that many women, who are NOT playing the pick me game, even well over their sell by date, actually DGAF about men, or about being youthful, or attractive, and THEN we see the mysogyny loom high.

And when that happens we really see how many of the supposed good guys are only interested when we are playing the game. When we actually dont need them, or care what they think about our pleasingness to them, oh my.........

@emilysquest, as one of the few men posting here frequently, perhaps I could answer some of your questions. Obviously I can only really speak for myself, not for other men, and as it happens not for gay men.

I do not have the fear of the opposite sex in my spaces that many women, totally reasonably, have. So if a transman came into the gents, I would feel uneasy and possibly embarrassed, but not afraid. Some transmen I might not even notice, as some “pass” fairly convincingly (unlike transwomen, who usually stick out like a sore thumb). I would be very uncomfortable if it was a transman I knew, however.

In changing rooms, I would be uncomfortable, but would try to change as unobtrusively and efficiently as I do in the presence of men. I wouldn’t engage in conversation, again just as I wouldn’t engage in conversation with a man in a changing room.

In most sports, men have nothing to fear but embarrassment (but most of us are spectacularly untalented and know it). In contact sports, and in sports where there is the possibility of unintentional contact, many men would be very aware that they pose a risk to transmen, and that could affect how wholeheartedly they participate; I think most sporty men would find that diminishes their enjoyment.

I have heard that gay men can have similar experiences to those of lesbians with transwomen, but again without the same levels of fear.

Overall, transmen are not usually a big issue for men, and tend to be seen with amused tolerance in my limited experience.

Nope just I don’t believe the majority of men are going to rape women. I understand someone who has been a victim of sexual assault will not want to share spaces.
I personally don’t think someone would go to the lengths of having the full surgery to better their chances of abusing women.
I appreciate and know that a rape survivor will not agree my opinion.

Since I've been designated today's "most hateful, terf that ever terfed on terf island" I'd like to say that trans women should NOT be allowed to pee! Not ANYWHERE.If they want to be real women they should know the urinary leash. It's what "living as a woman" mean!

And I'm not answering questions, so don't bother because "no debate" works both ways.

sorry, what is your question?