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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Older generations show resistance to trans rights

1000 replies

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 22:36

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
Okayornot · 08/04/2024 08:03

And those girls who need a sports scholarship to get an education.

(and a load of other examples)

Ellysa · 08/04/2024 08:04

“Lots of toilets now are unisex so what’s wrong with that!”

Unisex toilets = men piss all over the seat and floor, then women have to choose between wiping up after the man or sitting in it.

Unisex toilets = stink of hormones of male strangers in a way that speaks to some very deep instincts in women, warning them to avoid that area. Did you know that a male dog will piss all over a tree a female dog has used, but a female dog won’t piss where an unknown male dog has been?

Unisex toilets = increased number of sexual assaults on women and girls.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:04

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 07:57

Your doctor's surgery or a hospital is literally the only place where your biological sex should be relevant.

A startlingly bold claim.

CurlewKate · 08/04/2024 08:06

@Inauthentic can you say precisely what you mean by "trans rights"? I have fought for the rights of many groups over a long life of political and social activism, and would be naturally drawn to add my support to a fight for the rights of trans people. But I remain unclear exactly what is needed. Could you clarify, please?

Crankywiddershins · 08/04/2024 08:06

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 23:36

I am not ageist.
The generational theory is quite well known and researched concept.

I'm not ageist
Having read most of this thread I have a theory. I've noticed that several posters have popped up to say that they're in their 40s and support trans rights. I think this is actually an internalised hatred of old women and fear of becoming one.
In your 20s you're attractive, you're sexy, men creep on you in public pay you attention. In your 30s you have confidence and and men pretend to treat you with respect. By your 40s your looks and body are changing and the menopause is just around the corner. Creeps have stopped creeping on you and the only men that still treat you with respect look old enough to be your grandad (because we're all still 18 inside our heads)
So my theory is that these women who are old enough to know better, but pretend to be "down with the kids" are desperately trying to run away from the inevitability of becoming an invisible, ignored, despised, old woman by being a middle aged pick me.
It's just a phase, hopefully they'll grow out of it when the men they idolise stop treating them like they're still fuckable regardless. It's a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

forgotmyusername1 · 08/04/2024 08:07

41 and female

Trans people should have equal rights to safety, jobs, housing and not being discriminated against on the basis of being trans.

That does not mean that trans women are actual women and that any man who says they are a woman should be able to access women's safe spaces, sports, awards or jobs.

Trans women's rights are not more important than natal women's rights to say no

teawamutu · 08/04/2024 08:08

This has the strong whiff of screenshot collection, tbh. It's hard to believe that anyone has reached their 30s at least and achieved literacy while remaining this naive.

Always useful for the lurkers and emerging terfs to see the absolute lack of evidence or reasoning on the TRA side laid bare, though.

ADoggyDogWorld · 08/04/2024 08:08

Brefugee · 08/04/2024 06:21

NC fail?

No name change, I was trying to engage with this poster.

forgotmyusername1 · 08/04/2024 08:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

They just don't tell you as they don't want an argument.

Question. Should these ladies be able to use women's changing rooms? If not why not?

WickedSerious · 08/04/2024 08:11

forgotmyusername1 · 08/04/2024 08:09

They just don't tell you as they don't want an argument.

Question. Should these ladies be able to use women's changing rooms? If not why not?

Oh my,they're all so beeyootiful.

OolongTeaDrinker · 08/04/2024 08:12

I am a millennial and am GC, as are friends and colleagues of the same age; my nephews and nieces are late teens and are GC. The only people I know who parrot the inane trans rights are human rights mantra are those who would be classed as Gen Z..

I don’t know any who considers puberty blockers as a grey area, especially with the latest research published.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:22

Crankywiddershins · 08/04/2024 08:06

I'm not ageist
Having read most of this thread I have a theory. I've noticed that several posters have popped up to say that they're in their 40s and support trans rights. I think this is actually an internalised hatred of old women and fear of becoming one.
In your 20s you're attractive, you're sexy, men creep on you in public pay you attention. In your 30s you have confidence and and men pretend to treat you with respect. By your 40s your looks and body are changing and the menopause is just around the corner. Creeps have stopped creeping on you and the only men that still treat you with respect look old enough to be your grandad (because we're all still 18 inside our heads)
So my theory is that these women who are old enough to know better, but pretend to be "down with the kids" are desperately trying to run away from the inevitability of becoming an invisible, ignored, despised, old woman by being a middle aged pick me.
It's just a phase, hopefully they'll grow out of it when the men they idolise stop treating them like they're still fuckable regardless. It's a kind of Stockholm syndrome.

What a disgustingly misogynistic post. Women don't form their views according to whether random men find them sexually attractive or not.

In addition, women don't stop being considered sexually attractive at 40 any more. The days of adopting a short, sensible haircut and putting on a frumpy dress on your fortieth birthday and suddenly being middle aged are long gone. Advancements in skincare, tweakments etc mean it's increasingly difficult to tell people's ages anyway, and people don't dress differently according to their age. There are plenty of older women with younger men. I know lots of ladies in their 60s and 70s who look amazing and are always out on dates and meeting new partners.

But that's all irrelevant because women don't form their opinions based on what men think of them, and I can't quite believe anyone on a supposedly feminist forum said that.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:24

'Frumpy'

This whole thread is a slightly pathetic attempt to make women feel ashamed of their age, their views, their bodies.

It's curious that I see so much rampant ageism in gender ideology- often from chaps much older than me.

forgotmyusername1 · 08/04/2024 08:25

This is what happened

Older generations show resistance to trans rights
Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/04/2024 08:25

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:24

'Frumpy'

This whole thread is a slightly pathetic attempt to make women feel ashamed of their age, their views, their bodies.

It's curious that I see so much rampant ageism in gender ideology- often from chaps much older than me.

Edited

Innit just? I guess that’s why so many TW of the Malaga variety identify as girls rather than being middle aged women even when they’ll never see 50 again

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:25

'Advancements in skincare, tweakments etc mean it's increasingly difficult to tell people's ages anyway, and people don't dress differently according to their age. There are plenty of older women with younger men. I know lots of ladies in their 60s and 70s who look amazing and are always out on dates and meeting new partners.'

Is this ChatGP writing copy for Botox fillers?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 08/04/2024 08:25

Inauthentic · 07/04/2024 23:53

There is a bit of parallel there, in my opinion.

Some people use biological attributes (for example penis) as an only indication of how the person should identify.

In the past many people used an argument that homosexuality is not natural. A men with penis shouldn't desire another man because it's against biology?

Similarly, biologically it doesn't make sense that a man with penis can identify/ desire to be a woman?

The difference is that someone's sexuality is defined by their subjectively experienced feelings, whereas their sex is defined by reference to objective criteria.

If a dead body is found, whether the person died this morning or 5000 years ago, we will be able to tell whether they were a man or a woman. We will not be able to tell, just from examining them, whether they were attracted to men, or women, or both.

A person's sexuality is entirely defined by how they feel inside. They feel attracted to members of the opposite sex, or the same sex, or both. They are the only person who can tell us how they feel inside, so we have to take their word for it. And if, for whatever reason, they lie about it (e.g. because they are gay but not yet out), it usually has very little impact on others. (The only exception I can think of is where someone knows they are gay and pretends they are straight to the point of marrying and having children, only to come out years later, which is likely to be traumatic for their family members who feel they have been living a lie.)

Not so with sex. We observe and record a baby's sex at birth, because we can see it, and because we recognise that it is important.

Other people's sexualities have nothing to do with us. Another woman being a lesbian has no impact on me. She isn't changing what it means to be a woman, because women are not defined by their attraction to men. (As explained above, we know whether someone is a woman or not even if we do not know whether she is attracted to women, men, both or neither.) If she is married to another woman, this does not change the meaning of my marriage to a man.

But if we accept that a person who identifies as a woman is actually a woman, this changes the meaning of the word "woman". Previously understood to be a word which meant "female people", it becomes a word which includes some male people and excludes some female people. On what basis, it is not clear. Because most of the rest of us do not understand what trans people are identifying with. We do not understand what they think a woman or a man is, or why they believe they are one. If "women" becomes an identity based category, am I a woman or not? I don't know. What I do know is that I am a member of the childbearing sex, and it is important to me to have a word for that, as well as rights, spaces and sports based on this categorisation.

The impact of this on lesbians and gay men is even more severe. Because their sexuality, which is based entirely on how they feel, nonetheless relies on being able to define people according to their sex. The word "lesbian" means a woman who is exclusively sexually attracted to other women. If the definition of the word "woman" changes, so does the definition of the word "lesbian". And if people who were born male or who have sexual relationships with people who were born male are now self defining as lesbians, the original lesbians no longer have a word for what they are.

In short, the difference is boundaries.

If what you are doing is not trampling over other people's boundaries, we should all live and let live. But if it is, there is a problem.

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:25

forgotmyusername1 · 08/04/2024 08:09

They just don't tell you as they don't want an argument.

Question. Should these ladies be able to use women's changing rooms? If not why not?

How disgusting to collect a bunch of photos of women, merely to mock their appearance and sneer at them for not being traditionally feminine enough. Of course they should be able to use whichever changing rooms they wish to.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/04/2024 08:27

oh Fox you’re over reaching now - rookie error. You nearly had us believing you meant all your word salad but no one who is remotely serious could look at that collection of photos and say “oh yes definitely women”

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:28

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:24

'Frumpy'

This whole thread is a slightly pathetic attempt to make women feel ashamed of their age, their views, their bodies.

It's curious that I see so much rampant ageism in gender ideology- often from chaps much older than me.

Edited

Frumpy refers to a style of dress, and has nothing whatsoever to do with age. It's just that in the past all women were expected to become frumpy once they hit 40, and now we have a choice.

Runningupthecurtains · 08/04/2024 08:29

It would be interesting to see what would happen to the leagues if the games were mixed. I wouldn't be surprised if the championship became dominated by the best woman's teams and premier league remained largely male with a few excellent female players however over time I imagine even that would change

@sleepyscientist

Women wouldn't get a sniff until well down the non league pyramid.
Because however brilliant, however skillful they won't get a lookin against men that can out run them, out jump them and shrug them off the ball. They can kick the ball so hard female keepers wouldn't have a chance of making saves from penalties etc.

High school boys beat female Olympians running times.

That is without addressing the danger. Are you really saying bring on the mixed sex boxing it will all be fine?
In an era when football and rugby are looking at concussion and long term damage are you actually suggesting women should be punched in the head by men?

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:29

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:25

How disgusting to collect a bunch of photos of women, merely to mock their appearance and sneer at them for not being traditionally feminine enough. Of course they should be able to use whichever changing rooms they wish to.

Let's share this joyous message of acceptance without exception throughout the land!

All men who want to use women's spaces should be celebrated!

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:30

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/04/2024 08:27

oh Fox you’re over reaching now - rookie error. You nearly had us believing you meant all your word salad but no one who is remotely serious could look at that collection of photos and say “oh yes definitely women”

I don't believe that they are biologically/chromosomally women, but I don't think that is how we should define a woman.

ArabellaScott · 08/04/2024 08:31

ForCoralFox · 08/04/2024 08:28

Frumpy refers to a style of dress, and has nothing whatsoever to do with age. It's just that in the past all women were expected to become frumpy once they hit 40, and now we have a choice.

'Frumpy' is a term invented to denigrate women for being less sexually appealing. Its predicated on a woman's worth beung dependent of her attractiveness to the male gaze. Its bullshit.

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