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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall states that “misgendering” isn’t a crime

160 replies

PriOn1 · 04/04/2024 06:07

In an astonishing twist, Stonewall has stated that correctly sexing men is not a crime.

They are, of course, only admitting this now it’s been made very clear by Police Scotland’s reaction to JK Rowling.

They said nothing over the years as women were chucked off social media, for correctly sexing men. Not sure if anyone was actually arrested for only doing it, but they have allowed the fear to fester on and on, leading to chilling of free speech.

What a bunch of weasels they are.

https://x.com/Jebadoo2/status/1775643089010385141?s=20

Stonewall states that “misgendering” isn’t a crime
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Snowypeaks · 04/04/2024 13:15

Emotionalsupportviper · 04/04/2024 12:43

Is that a support-seal identifying as a dog?

As long as it's a sincerely held belief that pinnipeds can be quadrupeds, I suppose that's acceptable.

I'm taking that to mean that seals' flippers are named after pinafores.

Snowypeaks · 04/04/2024 13:19

Emotionalsupportviper · 04/04/2024 13:09

I was actually privileged to see a weasel mother moving her litter from one (obviously somehow compromised) under-tree trunk burrow to somewhere she considered safer.

She was tiny, and carried five minute kits, one at a time across the field where I was standing, through another field of cattle to her preferred place. There may have been more - I don't know if she'd been busy before I spotted her. I would guess, size-wise, it would have been like me carrying five cocker spaniels, one after another, a distance of a couple of miles, and coming back each time for the next. All at full speed.

It was pure good fortune that I spotted her and the dog didn't, (though the dog was an elderly west and probably wouldn't have bothered) - I leashed her and just watched the drama unfold until Mammy Weasel didn't come back for any more.

it was thrilling - I wished I'd had a camera. I' d love to know what she had felt threatened. I can only think it was something that humans were doing - I can't imagine weasels have many enemies, though they were very tiny babies, so maybe badgers or foxes might have taken them?

Edit for autocarrot

Edited

Lucky you! It is exactly that - a privilege - to see animals behaving naturally in their habitat.

Chersfrozenface · 04/04/2024 13:21

Snowypeaks · 04/04/2024 13:15

I'm taking that to mean that seals' flippers are named after pinafores.

No. I can give you the etymology if you've time to waste...

One thing I didn't know until today is that the closest relatives of the pinnipeds (walrus, sea lions, fur seals, true seals) are the musteloids, which include weasels and ferrets.

Neat, eh?

RethinkingLife · 04/04/2024 13:21

misscockerspaniel · 04/04/2024 10:57

Stonewall is biding its time until the general election puts the mealy-mouthed Labour Party into power. It will then use the statute book to douse us. Or rather, try to douse us.

Our fight is far from won.

Extirpating the influence of people already in position will take decades.

There are minor victories and the publicity is heartening but Denton's strategy has worked. They're in place everywhere, influencing and writing policy with negligible oversight and almost no mechanism for revising, far less tearing it up (see GRA 2004).

People who are padding their CVs with Stonewall accolades will continue because social pressure to be an ally works.

Does anyone thing the command and control of NHS is going to reverse any time soon? Especially as there's a culture that lauds bullying combined with a public face as angelic?

Emotionalsupportviper · 04/04/2024 13:23

Snowypeaks · 04/04/2024 13:15

I'm taking that to mean that seals' flippers are named after pinafores.

I can't think what else it could be, TBH.

Emotionalsupportviper · 04/04/2024 13:24

Chersfrozenface · 04/04/2024 13:21

No. I can give you the etymology if you've time to waste...

One thing I didn't know until today is that the closest relatives of the pinnipeds (walrus, sea lions, fur seals, true seals) are the musteloids, which include weasels and ferrets.

Neat, eh?

That is SO satisfying!

EpicPineapple · 04/04/2024 13:25

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 04/04/2024 10:12

And just to add - misgendering might not be a crime but the police and many workplaces have been - in many cases - acting as if it were.

And the people to blame for that are Stonewall and their women-hating training. They directly have resulted in women being harmed.

So they can fuck off with their reverse ferreting now.

(SPAG question: one or two t's in 'ferreting/ feretting'? I feel like it should be two. Need to get it right as suspect I'll be using this phrase a lot in coming days and weeks)

Edited

I’m very interested in why and how Stonewall and other extremists have been allowed to train government servants like the police and teachers. If you want to train a junior chef, you get a senior chef to do it. If you want to train a junior mechanic or lawyer you use a senior mechanic or lawyer. Why do we train junior police with a political lobby group?

Snowypeaks · 04/04/2024 13:29

Chersfrozenface · 04/04/2024 13:21

No. I can give you the etymology if you've time to waste...

One thing I didn't know until today is that the closest relatives of the pinnipeds (walrus, sea lions, fur seals, true seals) are the musteloids, which include weasels and ferrets.

Neat, eh?

Thanks, but I was joking about pinafores.

Fascinating to hear about the kinship, though. I did not know that.

Chersfrozenface · 04/04/2024 13:30

'pinafore' is literally the two English words 'pin' and 'afore' - an apron whose bib you pin to your front.

'pinniped' comes from the Latin words pinna 'fin' and pes, pedis 'foot'.

RethinkingLife · 04/04/2024 13:42

EpicPineapple · 04/04/2024 13:25

I’m very interested in why and how Stonewall and other extremists have been allowed to train government servants like the police and teachers. If you want to train a junior chef, you get a senior chef to do it. If you want to train a junior mechanic or lawyer you use a senior mechanic or lawyer. Why do we train junior police with a political lobby group?

I can definitely understand this, in some cases.

When the Police have, historically, not had to pay attention to how they connect with deaf people, people with learning disabilities etc. then they'd learn little from previous or current practices. I'd fully endorse them buying in training from a lobby group that represents Deaf charities or LD charities/organisations.

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2024 14:24

RethinkingLife · 04/04/2024 13:21

Extirpating the influence of people already in position will take decades.

There are minor victories and the publicity is heartening but Denton's strategy has worked. They're in place everywhere, influencing and writing policy with negligible oversight and almost no mechanism for revising, far less tearing it up (see GRA 2004).

People who are padding their CVs with Stonewall accolades will continue because social pressure to be an ally works.

Does anyone thing the command and control of NHS is going to reverse any time soon? Especially as there's a culture that lauds bullying combined with a public face as angelic?

Decades? Na. Not that long. A long time but not decades imho. I think the whole house is built on that much sand tbh.

You have the Midmanagement JobsWorth in place, but I think the law will move on and there won't be the money put aside for Diversity Training generally going forward, even with an incoming Labour government. Once cut from Public Sector budgets they won't be reinstated as there isn't the money to justify it. So Stonewall being dropped now on mass isn't likely to reverse. A few more rulings on employment and the Public Sector will also get nervous about disciplining for WrongThink.

The whole thing is largely about the younger generations providing Enforcement too. Thats about the political engagment of young people - but I think the support is more shallow than is credited. A huge amount is about Campus Activism and Online Activism.

As soon as eyerolling teens and twenty somethings start to leave education the game will unravel pretty quick. They are the ones propping up the madness. As this cohort age and gain responsibility the Social Enforcement Brigade shrinks - if for no other reason than because they have less time for it. The fashionable social justice cause has shifted in the last twelve months hugely too. Its now firmly Israel for Student Activists so new recruitment to The Cause is shrinking. (I remember in my teens that The Cause at High School was not testing on animals.) The number of Identifying as well as Enforcers is liable to shrink as the trend passes as well and we are already starting to see evidence of this decline.

Then add in the impact of detransitioning. When everyone in your social group knows a detransitioner, the whole thing also starts to collaspe as a concept very quickly and people. You might be more familiar and know transpeople if you are younger, but that doesn't mean that contact is going to be positive. Unreasonable levels of demand and poor behaviour about pronouns generally isn't going to endeer others to be truly sympathetic long term. Especially if theres a significant level of detransition. The facade of saying you are the opposite sex and then changing your mind isn't going to sit well within a decade, not decades. I do think whole thing is skin deep for this reason.

We shall see, but I think the whole thing accellerated at great speed without a lot of forethought applied and as such its liable to collaspe almost as quickly.

Its like a cult. Cult membership tends to last on average 9 years. I think it will be shorter for most, as this is starting earlier - at schools rather than as an adult - than traditional cults and how your social circles change is much more rapid at this age. I also think social media friendship bubbles tend to burst quicker too.

Its interesting looking into this cult like element. Theres some research into this.

Heres one such example:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178116319941
Its a small study so has a limited quality but it raises a few questions nontheless.

3.1. Description of former cult members
Thirty-one former cult members were included in the study. Most were women (74.2%) and had more than 12 years of education (61.3%). At the time of the interview, most were employed (74.2%) and lived as part of a couple (58.1%). Nearly half of the sample displayed an anxiety disorder during the year preceding the commitment (51.6%). From commitment to 12 months after departure, the prevalence of anxiety disorders increased progressively (58.1% during the membership period and 61.3% during the year following departure). Six former cult members reported having post-traumatic stress disorder during cult membership. The prevalence of mood disorders tended to decrease between the year preceding the commitment (45.2%) and the membership period (35.5%) but to increase during the year following departure (54.8%). The prevalence of substance use disorders and eating disorders decreased from 12.9% in the year preceding commitment to 9.7% during cult membership and to 6.4% in the year after the member had left the group.

AND

3.3. Experiences of the former cult members in the cultic groupThe mean age of former members at the time of commitment was 31 (SD 1.2). The average length of cult membership was almost 9 years and the time since departure was an average of 9.8 years (SD 7.8). The time between first contact and commitment and between the first desire to leave and departure were similar (22 and 16 months, respectively). Events that facilitated commitment were often a need for personal development, life dissatisfaction or being on a spiritual quest. Social and familial life were the most frequently damaged elements, as reported by the former cult members. More than 80% left the group on personal initiative. They reported that the most frequent obstacle to departure was a romantic relationship or having family members in the cultic group and difficulty in questioning the creeds of the group. The most frequent events that aided in departure were a lack of faith in the creeds of the group and social interventions.

Is this sounding familiar at all in pattern?

The comments from Stonewall are VERY interesting in this context too. The comparison with religion is something we've been saying on here for some time. Now Stonewall are admitting this. The more this starts to happen, the more the comparisons with cults/drug addiction will start to enter people's minds.

We are starting to talk about the negative effects echochambers and immersive culture more and more generally too.

Malcolm Clark has posted this in the last hour or so along the same lines:

Malcolm Clark AT TwisterFilm
Here's a question: If the murder of Brianna Ghey was the fault of an allegedly transphobic culture, why are the crimes of trans offenders not the fault of the warped culture of boundary-breaking trans people are immersed in? My latest in TheCriticMag
https://thecritic.co.uk/the-dangerous-excesses-of-breaking-boundaries/

This is extremely controversial ground, but I think it has considerable merit when you look at the spiral of behaviour of various prominent transactivists and the way they've reacted to every single one of JKR posts and the rather alarming parallels with the Incel Movement which is happening at the exact same time. Its hard to just say that what Malcolm is saying is transphobic - its not about murder as such - its about patterns of behaviour and the failure to condemn behaviour which is clearly unacceptable and would be condemned if done by any other group. The rantings of IW are THE classic example.

When cults collaspe, the collaspe can be spectacularly fast. And can be 'very messy'. They tend to regroup and reform but once they have peaked its hard to replicate as more people are more cautious about the group if they have a known history.

So yeah, I think a decade is a fairly reasonable guestimate of the madness. It won't mean the end of transpeople. It just means there won't be the same willingness to accept at face value and to 'be kind' without thought. Unreasonable demands and behaviour will start to raise eyebrows and be met with "No" with increasing frequency as all of the above starts to kick in.

peanutbuttertoasty · 04/04/2024 14:33

“Everyone deserves to feel safe while going about their daily lives”. Except women. The uncool ones of course 🙄

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/04/2024 14:38

peanutbuttertoasty · 04/04/2024 14:33

“Everyone deserves to feel safe while going about their daily lives”. Except women. The uncool ones of course 🙄

It's this cognitive dissonance from Team "Be Kind" that I just do not get.

I raised the issue of trans women in women's single sex spaces with a friend of mine once and she said, "I think people should use the spaces they feel most safe and comfortable using."

I replied, "What about the women who don't feel safe or comfortable sharing toilets and changing rooms with the opposite sex? Which spaces do they get to use??"

She had no answer.

RethinkingLife · 04/04/2024 14:42

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

You have the Midmanagement JobsWorth in place,

Although irritated by them, I'm less troubled by them than I am the interns and relatively junior posts that have relatively disproportionate influence.

SEEN mentioned that juniors weren't passing along all consultation responses. Look at the impact of interns and junior appointments on the reputation of major institutions.

I've contributed to guidelines etc. in which I've used correct sexes. By the time they passed through the sign-off process, it's been edited, presumably by the admin staff rather than the guideline writers.

I cleave to decades. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

SinnerBoy · 04/04/2024 14:45

IcakethereforeIam · Today 12:36

Just a sec! So their name isn't 'Idul Wadhwa'. All this time, I thought the Mr bit was a title Thank heavens I never met the person, that could have been embarrassing.

And just think if you'd accidentally made an anagram, such as:

Wad Wail Duh Mr, or Wad Wham Lurid!

SerendipityJane · 04/04/2024 14:45

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/04/2024 14:38

It's this cognitive dissonance from Team "Be Kind" that I just do not get.

I raised the issue of trans women in women's single sex spaces with a friend of mine once and she said, "I think people should use the spaces they feel most safe and comfortable using."

I replied, "What about the women who don't feel safe or comfortable sharing toilets and changing rooms with the opposite sex? Which spaces do they get to use??"

She had no answer.

I do find myself wondering what would have happened if a groundswell of men (as in "men") refused to use unisex toilets ?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/04/2024 14:46

RethinkingLife · 04/04/2024 14:42

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

You have the Midmanagement JobsWorth in place,

Although irritated by them, I'm less troubled by them than I am the interns and relatively junior posts that have relatively disproportionate influence.

SEEN mentioned that juniors weren't passing along all consultation responses. Look at the impact of interns and junior appointments on the reputation of major institutions.

I've contributed to guidelines etc. in which I've used correct sexes. By the time they passed through the sign-off process, it's been edited, presumably by the admin staff rather than the guideline writers.

I cleave to decades. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

As the mother of two toddlers, I am cautiously optimistic that the transitioning of children will effectively have been outlawed by the time my children are old enough to be vulnerable to it.

Regarding women's rights, it is likely to be a longer process.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/04/2024 14:47

SerendipityJane · 04/04/2024 14:45

I do find myself wondering what would have happened if a groundswell of men (as in "men") refused to use unisex toilets ?

I have no idea what you mean by "men", which illustrates the scale of the problem here.

SerendipityJane · 04/04/2024 14:52

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 04/04/2024 14:47

I have no idea what you mean by "men", which illustrates the scale of the problem here.

Adult human males

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2024 15:08

RethinkingLife · 04/04/2024 14:42

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

You have the Midmanagement JobsWorth in place,

Although irritated by them, I'm less troubled by them than I am the interns and relatively junior posts that have relatively disproportionate influence.

SEEN mentioned that juniors weren't passing along all consultation responses. Look at the impact of interns and junior appointments on the reputation of major institutions.

I've contributed to guidelines etc. in which I've used correct sexes. By the time they passed through the sign-off process, it's been edited, presumably by the admin staff rather than the guideline writers.

I cleave to decades. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

Those in intern and relatively junior positions now will be moved to the middle so they don't get to gatekeep in the same way, but they also won't be in positions where they are decisions makers.

That's kinda the point. The whole thing has to keep creating new recruits to fulfil the enforcer roles at a rate higher than those who stop believing. That sustainable rate has collapsed.

And the people currently in diversity roles are liable to find their jobs being increasingly surplus to requirements of funding collapses.

The market is a grift and only really services and maintains itself. There's increasing calls for tangible results and provable evidence that these schemes are value for money and achieve their aims. Which is in short supply and there's evidence it's having an effect to the counter.

The incel movement is the one that's giving the most cause for concern about being the result of a backlash of diversity drives and that's what you should keep an eye on in terms of where diversity type thinking goes next.

SerendipityJane · 04/04/2024 15:13

That's kinda the point. The whole thing has to keep creating new recruits to fulfil the enforcer roles at a rate higher than those who stop believing. That sustainable rate has collapsed.

It's an ideological ponzi scheme

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2024 15:27

SerendipityJane · 04/04/2024 15:13

That's kinda the point. The whole thing has to keep creating new recruits to fulfil the enforcer roles at a rate higher than those who stop believing. That sustainable rate has collapsed.

It's an ideological ponzi scheme

Yep exactly.

The entire business model for gender clinics is about getting enough converts.

There's the sink cost fallacy issue that keep people in the club, but if you aren't getting new recruits then you can maintain that support indefinitely either.

They've had a massive growth phase. That's coming to a head in the UK.

Where are all the new surgeons to perform the surgery that's being demanded in the UK. The NHS can't recruit them either partly because of liability risks rising. That only leaves the options of going private or going abroad. Which prices a load of people out too of going the whole way.

What happens next?

viques · 04/04/2024 15:58

SerendipityJane · 04/04/2024 14:45

I do find myself wondering what would have happened if a groundswell of men (as in "men") refused to use unisex toilets ?

TWICE I have been queuing up in a unisex toilet queue when entitled men have tried to queue jump( tried being an operative word heehee) , they obviously think that a unisex toilet is a toilet where mere women will be queuing to use cubicles but men needing to pee will find miracle urinals cleaned with unicorn tears.

LoobiJee · 04/04/2024 16:09

SoupDragonsFriend · 04/04/2024 11:24

I hope that somewhere a GC training provider is waiting in the wings with an up-to-date course for businesses and institutions previously captured by Stonewall et al. Something is going to be needed that will address facts and law, and rectify the damage that's been done.

Good point. I wonder if this is something Sex Matters could commission?

MarieDeGournay · 04/04/2024 16:15

SOLD A PUP BY STONEWALL? INACCURATE ADVICE ON DIVERSITY COSTING YOU MONEY AND REPUTATION?
CONTACT 1-800-G.C. LAW TO SEE WHAT'S SALVAGEABLE!

Stonewall states that “misgendering” isn’t a crime
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