KJK’s insane rant

[Dontblameitonsunshine]

Kjk’s decision to attack everyone who is not her lapdog is increasingly destructive. It looks like Can-sg put on a great conference. Those doctors who have spoken up have risked their careers. Kjk has become famous and has started a business from LWS. She has benefited way more than any of these doctors.

Her work could be powerful if she just stopped attacking everyone else. But these days she is a demagogue and causes more harm than good by capitalising on vulnerable and timid women and telling them that they need her to speak for them.

Not that ludicrous, bearing in mind many of them worked in the same clinics that were [literally] transitioning children.

It's like saying that you got into brewing because you liked beer and now you've started a new brewery and you are totally against beer and all it stands for. In that case, why not get into something completely different rather than perpetuate the beer drinking culture that you are now apparently against?

She meant the gender critical movement. It is clear from what she wrote.

Seriously?

A. Please look up the definition of whistleblower.

B. If there is going to be change, those very people who worked in gender clinics need to be able to access and discuss evidence.

C. Why are you so set on painting these clinicians in a certain light, instead of listening to them, and finding out what they're actually about?

Gender identity is not a medical condition.

There should not BE any medical treatment for gender distress.

If there is gender distress there is usually an underlying co-morbidity. That's what they should be talking about.

This is really great to see - I hadn't actually read this wording before.

I particularly like the bits in the bits in bold (my emphasis)

1. Agreed, precise terminology about sex, gender and gender identity.
2. Recording of biological sex in all healthcare settings and data, alongside optional recording of gender identity where relevant.
3. Ensuring their policies are sex, sexual orientation and gender reassignment sensitive, Equality Act compliant and Equality Impact assessed.
4. Developing and testing the safety and efficacy of a range of therapies to support all people who have significant distress around their sex or sense of identity, within a nationally approved research programme to address uncertainties in the field of gender dysphoria.
5. Avoidance of medical interventions in young people undergoing normal puberty and development until they reach brain maturity.

This suggests that they are making a clear distinction between science and belief, and by extension trying to limit the number of people who make irrerversible changes to their bodies because of a belief that they currently hold. Many people who hold the belief that everyone has a gender identity will change their minds at some point, just as many Christians become atheists.

By way of contrast, the current schools' statutory guidance (which underpins RSE/PHSE) says that children need to learn information which supports them in their own exploration of "their sexual orientation and gender identity". Thus implicitly saying that they will have a gender identity, rather than the idea that they may believe that they do. The distinction between the reality of sex and the belief that everyone has a gender identity is critical in healthcare (and education).

So I can see this seems really laudable, and it’s pragmatic. It takes the current situation of people wanting to transition and attempts to clarify the issues around that- there’s no magic bullet, you will never be the other sex, the treatment is iffy and needs research into best options…

But that implies that when someone is, arguably, 25 (brain maturity), then we’ll help them achieve the best transition.

Many People would think that’s a good result. Yet a sizeable chunk of people will hang out for 25, socially transitioning in the meantime and not addressing their other issues in the meantime.

Many people would think that’s a shocking result, and transing people is always wrong.

Both perspectives are reasonable, I think.

KJK is a zero tolerance kind of woman. The sooner everyone admits this is a load of bunkum, the better.
If you think that way, and push that, then you will be left with a very small group of dysphoric adults needing treatment.

I’m not arguing against this conference, by the way. Just defending the right to see compromise as weak.

I’m by nature a pragmatist and love a good compromise. But other points of view are valid.

Gender identity is not a medical condition.

No, but children who think they are the opposite sex often come to that conclusion because of other issues that require interventions (such as therapy).

There should not BE any medical treatment for gender distress.

Who is saying there should be? CAN SG are asking for evidence based therapies. If EVIDENCE says a therapy is beneficial to a child experienceing gender distress then why would you deny it to a child? There is no evidence that pubery blockers benefit children long term, and a whole lot of evidence of potential harm, that's the whole point, FFS! However, "therapy" includes a whole range of interventions including talking therapies, support for anorexia, or support for a history of sexual abuse, or support with neurodiversity, or treatment for depression etc etc etc.

If there is gender distress there is usually an underlying co-morbidity. That's what they should be talking about.

That IS what they're talking about. Who told you it wasn't?

Yes, exactly, CAN SG are doing some really important work.

Portraying them as supporting childhood transition is straight from upside-down world! It's as nonsensical as the stuff TRAs come out with.

You seem to be of the opinion that I walked into this this morning.

Once 'gender identity' is mentioned it becomes a thing. They have 'gender identity' in the first line of their list of things.

It isn't a thing. It doesn't need noting in certain circumstances because it isn't a thing.

It doent't need a definition because it isn't a thing.

They fail at the first hurdle and whilst they still think it is a thing they run the risk of going down the same road they found themselves down last time.

That's the point.

If their aim was to get Gender Identity OUT OF medical diagnosis, and focus on the actual issues, then they might hold out hope of succeeding. This way, they run the risk of being in exactly the same boat they were in the first time round.

Are you a doctor? Do you have experience of treating gender distressed people?

I don't think there are many medics who believe gender dysphoria isn't "a thing" and gender dysphoria is only possible if there is such a thing as gender identity for some people.

It's easier and cleaner to believe it isn't "a thing" so as not to think about how to manage it. Doesn't mean that's true in the real world though.

Clinicians at the tavi watched as the number of children referred increased because they cannot diagnosis gender/gender identity/gender dysphoria.

And similarly, they cannot say a child hasnt got gender/gender identity/gender dysphoria.

While children are seen in gender clinics, treated by gender clinicians and living in a world where gender dysphoria exists, there will be children self diagnosing with the condition. Instead of being on a medical path from puberty, it'll be from 17/18.

A much better aporoach would be to not have the concept of a child with gender dysphoria in the first place. Children shouldnt be treated by gender clinicians, but by clinicians who can help identity their real issues.

What would have happened to the number of people presenting with multiple personalities if we promoted that as much as we do gender dysphoria?

There are not enough professionals to deal with child and adolescent mental health issues. That's the real problem here. "Banning gender identity" will do nothing at all to stop children being mentally unwell.

And you now sound like someone who did indeed treat Kellie Jay Keen as some kind of ‘leader’ and who is now personally disappointed that she was not pure enough.

I don’t see any person in this ‘movement’ as leaders of anything except possibly their own organisations and I don’t see Kellie Jay Keen as being beyond criticism. However, your positioning of her role continues to be that you are personally disappointed in someone you once supported and you believe she has done things you don’t support, which is all fine, but you came onto the thread with personal attacks.

Plus you bizarrely have then characterised those saying ‘she has a point though’ as being followers to how did you put it? A ‘glorious leader’? While declaring a group as off limits to criticism for some reason.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with how you interact with people ‘in this movement’ and you project your own behaviour onto others.

This fascinating discussion shows how views are moving and changing. The fact that we can now challenge the existence of gender identity in medicine (as @AlisonDonut points out) is important. This ideology should be nowhere near children and the fact it is, demonstrates a massive fail on the part of adults in society . As @pickledandpuzzled pointed out upthread "KJK is a zero tolerance kind of woman. The sooner everyone admits this is a load of bunkum, the better."

Worth remembering that there's not one GC movement. There's an amazing array of men and women fighting this nonsense from so many angles, sport, prisons, schools, women's rights, academia, government and the law etc. KJK is just one of so many the activists. Of course it suits the odd random individual on here looking for opportunities to smear and slur to pontificate about KJK's wrongs. The majority of us are politically mature enough to recognise that differences, disagreements and alternative views can co exist in a democracy.

And I agree. But that doesn’t mean that you cannot work to remove this concept of gender identity requiring medical treatments and treating for co-morbidities while also improving the general health care availability for children. It is not an either /or situation. Both can be aims at the same time.

Wasting time pontificating over the definition of 'gender identity' rather than spending time getting to the nub of some distress is a bit of a time wasting exercise, for these rare doctors.

But hey ho, I'm not a doctor so cannot have an opinion.

I read the CAN-SG declaration as meaning that gender identity (the erroneous belief that one is the opposite sex) and gender dysphoria (distress about being a particular sex and/or having a particular body) are symptoms, not a metaphysical truth, and a reaction to it, respectively. If they can get medicalisation of minors banned, I for one will be ecstatic.

OK. So you think the conference was a waste of time.
Out of interest, how do you think medical treatments get identified and refined?

I also suspect that some of the clinicians who were there and speaking may potentially agree that they regret the harm that they allowed because they did go along with the pathway initially.

I really don’t think that those clinicians who have been working step by step to change the treatments and raise alarms would be denying that the points raised in the video are not worthy of discussion either. Because they will be the first to support discussion for all points of view. Maybe at a future conference they will have speakers who will present and discuss such views as well.

How odd. Alison posted about 'gender identity' and you replied with a post about 'gender dysphoria'. Do you think they're the same thing?

Right, but syphoning off medics to a gender identity clinic isn’t freeing up space for other kids with mental health distress.

The gender element is a symptom. It’s not the disease.

Sometimes I think ROGD would be better called ROTI (Rapid Onset Trans Identity)…

Yes, the very concept of the NHS having a 'gender' service only (barely) makes sense for adults who are old enough to make their own stupid mistakes.

Until people get their heads around this whole shit show being completely manufactured and made up, in order for men who get their kicks to justify their kicks being got, and refusing to participate in it, in any way, then it will continue to fester.