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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No more puberty blockers for children from the NHS - reported in the Times!

976 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/03/2024 16:21

This is massive - and long overdue

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/97ce2e81-2884-42f5-bb82-2a2778f2cc91?shareToken=9568e79f0683beea68ffe5e978b05a29

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pronounsbundlebundle · 13/03/2024 11:20

Schools should not be pretending children can change sex, ever. It must be statutory guidance and in KCSIE.

TheClogLady · 13/03/2024 11:27

Just putting down a marker before this thread gets really unwieldy.

Obvs this is great news but I’m cautious re: how many work around may spring from it (IIRC Sweden have stopped the private prescription of these drugs for gender dysphoria as well as the public health service)

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2024 11:30

This needs stressing given the messages from certain groups and the active promotion of gender ideology

Stephen Wilson AT faintlyfalling
"The ban on puberty blockers is going to lead to suicides."

"So you are advocating for more resources to be put into talk therapy for gender-questioning young people?"

"No, no. We are trying to make that illegal."

Terf islands AT bumbeanbannana
Must have been awful before the advent of PB being prescribed for this issue. The suicide rate must have been significantly higher

Stephen Wilson AT faintlyfalling
I've learned that asking this is incredibly phobic and literally wishing for the deaths of vulnerable kids.

Sarah Nova AT SlauHaus
The few hundred kids this applies to are well below the margin of error for suicide figures. But also, suicide seems a bit of a high bar for deciding on treating people. Is it used to justify any other treatment? Or is a miserable existence OK as long as that means fewer trans?

  1. The numbers involved here mean that you wouldn't be able to demonstrate banning puberty blockers increases suicide. Or disprove it either. Especially given the prevallience of co-morbities we know about.

  2. This makes the argument about the need for puberty blockers difficult to make in either scenario.

  3. So you have to look at a lower threshold of psychological harm and this has to be weighed up against the level of psychical harm - this includes effective 'false positives' or children who detransition later and have had harms both physical and mental from the treatment itself. You CAN NOT ignore detransitioners as not being 'true trans' or collateral damage anymore. This is why we see lots of attempt to suppress the very concept of detransitioners.

The point above about 'is it ok to have a miserable existence as long as it means fewer trans?' totally neglects the detransition issue. We should reframe this as 'how many unhappy and harmed detransitions kids AND unhappy transitioned kids are there versus the number of happy transitions kids?' If the number in the former group is much higher than the number in the latter group theres an issue - its not about there being 'fewer trans' its about the level of improvement in quality of life.

The fact that these ideologists can not ask the right research and ethically sound questions, is one that we should all focus on and challenge.

  1. You also have to again look at comorbidity issues. This is problematic as we know that mental health problems are more prevalent in the vulnerable groups the Cass Review picked up to begin with. And theres no real indication that kids who identify as trans have significantly worse mental health than their non-trans peers who have the same comorbid issues.

  2. The number of kids you'd have to experiment on to be able to do a high quality study which proves either the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of puberty blockers would have to be huge. Which begs the question of whether such a study would be ethical on a group with such vulnerabilities and comorbidities. The best you are going to get is a relevatively low quality study regardless of what it finds.

  3. The longitudal studies are crucial here too. Does the euphoria of transition wear off when reality kicks in and you reach certain life stages (such as friends having children or marrying)? How long must research continue to prove / disprove the point?

The numbers and time bits still worry me as its possible we will still a real terms increase in the number of kids put on puberty blockers by the nhs.

  1. Does it rely on constant validation? What happens without that validation? Is validation like a drug that you are addicted to? How do you enforce social validation? How does this differ from other addications? Is it a wise thing to do or does it fuel the problem with an increasing need for validation and thus we see greater and greater demands / claims or 'demonstrations' of how they really truly have changed sex? How might this manifest and be problematic?

We are already seeing issues over affirmative care and treatment within schools causing issues with social transition being hard to reverse

  1. And yes that all important question about mental health support...
duc748 · 13/03/2024 11:50

TheClogLady · 13/03/2024 11:27

Just putting down a marker before this thread gets really unwieldy.

Obvs this is great news but I’m cautious re: how many work around may spring from it (IIRC Sweden have stopped the private prescription of these drugs for gender dysphoria as well as the public health service)

Would that even be possible here? Can the govt (or anyone else) control what drugs doctors prescribe privately, outside the NHS?

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/03/2024 11:55

The proposed "conversion therapy" ban is going to be interesting, given that the new NHS management for gender dysphoria in children is what TRAs consider to be conversion therapy.

TheClogLady · 13/03/2024 11:59

duc748 · 13/03/2024 11:50

Would that even be possible here? Can the govt (or anyone else) control what drugs doctors prescribe privately, outside the NHS?

I have no idea. Not even sure if Sweden have managed a total ban on private prescriptions for blockers or a ban on GenderGP who were the only ones routinely prescribing them? (perhaps via banning Swedish pharmacies from fulfilling their prescriptions?)

I don’t suppose much can be done re: grey or black market purchases made online beyond engaging safeguarding frameworks if one suspects a child is obtaining prescription drugs via non prescription means…

Not really relevant re: blockers as they are long-acting injections or implants but FtM teens deffo share testosterone gel about between them (via stockpiling private prescriptions or buying via grey market) and that’s a controlled substance.

Emotionalsupportviper · 13/03/2024 12:01

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 11:10

Sallie Baxendale has been doing a lot of research into the research around PBs and it's not good.

x.com/statsforgender/status/1767660317184610814?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Interesting that some neuropsychological effects (which may or may not be reversible) are SEX specific.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2024 12:02

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/03/2024 11:55

The proposed "conversion therapy" ban is going to be interesting, given that the new NHS management for gender dysphoria in children is what TRAs consider to be conversion therapy.

Dennis Noel Kavanagh looked previously at the 'carve out clauses' that can be used as a legitimate defence....

  1. Clause 1 (2) (b) provides that no offence is committed where: a health practitioner takes an action in the course of providing a health service, provided that— (i) the health practitioner complies with regulatory and professional standards and considers in their reasonable professional judgement that it is appropriate to take that action, and

(ii) there was no predetermined outcome in terms of sexual orientation or transgender identity or lack of it at the start of any course of treatmentThis is a complex defence which consists of three concepts, first the meaning of “health practitioner, second the clause 1 (2) (b) (i) requirement of reasonableness and compliance and third the clause 1 (2) (b) (ii) requirement that there be no predetermined outcome.

Health practitioner defence part 1 – meaning of “health practitioner”
16. Clause 4 of the bill provides that a “Health Practitioner” “a person who is a member of a body overseen or accredited by the Professional Standards Body for Health and Social Care[14]. The Professional Standards Body for Health and Social Care is an umbrella organisation that oversees the following 10 regulators:
(i) The General Medical Council

(ii) Social Work England

(iii) General Pharmaceutical Council

(iv) General Optical Council

(v) General Dental Council

(vi) The Nursing and Midwifery Council

(vii) The Pharmaceutical Council of Northern Ireland

(viii) The General Osteopathic Council

(ix) The Heath and Care Professions Council

(x) The General Chiropractic Council

It is important to note that none of the bodies mentioned here regulate counselling or therapy, while the Health and Care Professions Council (ix above) regulates practitioner psychologists the wider fields of counselling and therapy are not regulated in the UK and would fall outside this defence. That absence presents serious issues in terms of the proposed legislation and places counsellors and therapists at jeopardy of criminal prosecution for actions that meet the low test of a conversion practice.

By way of example, a private counsellor who told a young patient to their professional view was that they were suffering internalised homophobia and manifesting a transgender identity as a result could in theory be prosecuted for a single activity intended and having the purpose of supressing a transgender identity. Given the interim Cass report[15] emphasises the importance of multi-disciplinary intervention, counselling and therapy, it is surprising that such services are placed in jeopardy of criminal prosecution.

Health practitioner defence part 2 – reasonableness and compliance

  1. It is a defence for a “Health Practitioner” meeting the definition in part 1 to show that they were complying “with regulatory and professional standards and considers in their reasonable professional judgement that it is appropriate to take that action”. Placing a requirement on a Defendant in a criminal matter is known as a “reverse burden of proof” (because the burden of proof ordinarily rests with the prosecution). Reverse burdens are generally considered undesirable as a matter of principle, though it is correct to say that despite this many offences do impose them. Reverse burdens in crime are discharged by a Defendant if they meet the civil, rather than criminal standard of proof, that is to say a Defendant would succeed in discharging this burden where they can prove that their case is more likely than not (“the balance of probabilities”).
  2. In this case a Defendant must show (i) they complied with regulatory and professional standards and (ii) that their judgment was reasonable. In respect of (i) pronounced difficulties are likely to arise as to what qualify as the “appropriate regulatory and professional standards”. In the field of paediatric gender medicine globally there are two competing standards of care which are diametrically opposed in approach. One approach is that of an organisation known as “WPATH” (The World Professional Association for Transgender Health[16]) which promotes a clinical approach known as “affirmation only” whereby a child’s self-diagnosis is determinative of treatment. An example of the contrary approach is found in the NHS England Interim Service Specifications (“NHS ISS”)[17] which promote a clinical approach variously described as “watchful waiting” or “exploratory therapy”.
  3. Many private providers in this field follow the WPATH model, NHS practitioners are expected to follow the NHS ISS. The draft bill presently fails to say which standard is intended to ground the Health Practitioner defence. If WPATH service standards constitute a defence, the bill risks entirely undermining the Cass review and thwarting the objective of criminalising a situation in which a young person is subject to a conversion practice whereby cross sex ideation is induced or cultivated. If the NHS ISS service standards are intended to constitute the defence this should be stated in terms, (though it would have the effect of making non-NHS approved practice in this area subject to potential criminal liability, rather than it being a regulatory matter). The second limb of this part of the defence requires that the judgment of the Health Practitioner be reasonable. This is likely to be duplicative and add very little to the first requirement that a Health Practitioner be acting according to regulatory and professional standards.

Health Practitioner Defence Part 3 – no predetermined outcome

  1. A Health Practitioner completes this defence where they show, on reverse burden, that “there was no predetermined outcome in terms of sexual orientation or transgender identity or lack of it at the start of any course of treatment”. This is a potentially stringent requirement both in the case of clinicians subscribing to the “affirmation only” approach and those adopting the NHS ISS “watchful waiting” approach. In the former case an adherent to “affirmation only” will conceptualise a child’s self-diagnosis as definitive and seek to accelerate progress onto puberty supressing drugs and cross sex hormones, they will in other words have in mind that predetermined outcome. Conversely, a clinician following the NHS ISS may quickly come to the conclusion that diagnostic overshadowing and comorbidities are at play and have the predetermined outcome of avoiding precisely such a medical pathway.
  2. In both cases neither has a defence in criminal law under the Health Practitioner exception. The effect of the section in total is to take a regulatory matter and cast the net of criminal liability over it. This could have the effect of chilling both kinds of practice in an area already well known for patient demand outstripping clinical capacity.

https://dennisnoelkavanagh.substack.com/p/legal-analysis-of-the-commons-pmb

I would go through this and comment, but I need to dash out. This is dated 23 Feb BEFORE the bill's latest reading in the HoC and before the WPATH leaks.

Its interesting to see where we are now, compared with then.

I'll be back later and comment on these points, if no one else has before then.

RedToothBrush · 13/03/2024 12:11

Short question given recent developments before I go ...

In terms of conversion therapy of gay children where would this draft leave not only the NHS but also gender gp?

If we say that puberty blockers are non reversible and always lead to transition that's a predetermined outcome....

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:22

@RedToothBrush just posting quickly, the Michael Shelling Twitter space last night mentioned a study published only 3 weeks ago in Finland which is significant as they track health of everyone so follow up is easy around suicide rates ( treatment makes no difference iirc but it was more complicated than that.)

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:23

*shellenberger

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:24

This must be what he was describing

x.com/shellenberger/status/1767611916321788305?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:26

"A major new study out of Finland found that providing cross-sex hormones and gender-transition surgeries to adolescents and young adults didn’t appear to have any significant effect on suicide deaths.

"What’s more, gender distress severe enough to send young people to a gender clinic wasn’t independently linked to a higher suicide death rate either.

"What was independently tied to a greater chance of suicide in young adults? A high number of appointments with mental-health specialists; in other words, severe mental health challenges.

"And so, the researchers concluded two things: One, that suicide deaths were higher, but still rare in gender-distressed young people.

"And two, that this group’s higher suicide rate was tied to the fact that they had a higher rate of severe psychiatric problems, not to their gender distress.

"What these young people need most urgently, the study authors concluded, is comprehensive mental health care – and not necessarily controversial medical interventions." — @ benryanwriter

Leafstamp · 13/03/2024 12:30

pronounsbundlebundle · 13/03/2024 11:20

Schools should not be pretending children can change sex, ever. It must be statutory guidance and in KCSIE.

This. 100%.

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:30

Lots more detail here

x.com/benryanwriter/status/1761367976840683781?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:31

I believe that Cass has been delayed to enable certain evidence to come together and be included.

And I think a lot of the events that have happened in the last few weeks are significant and significantly linked.

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 12:33

Schools should not be pretending children can change sex, ever. It must be statutory guidance and in KCSIE.

And more than ever it's clear that evidence shows that trans identity is very commonly a symptom of other mental health conditions or reactions.

And as such should be included as a safeguarding concern from this pov.

Snowypeaks · 13/03/2024 12:34

Leafstamp · 13/03/2024 12:30

This. 100%.

Another good reason for Truss's Bill to be enacted.

RebelliousCow · 13/03/2024 12:36

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/03/2024 10:53

I do think Evan Davies was given pause for thought yesterday when speaking to Dr David Bell. You could almost hear the gears changing.

He'd never before encountered direct resistance from a professional in the field, and did not know how to respond. He kept reverting to the tried and tested "But what about the 'actual' trans children"? Like all the other cheerleaders he has just accepted the line that " Some people are just trans, get over it" without further critical analysis of what 'being trans' actually means, or what it implies.

duc748 · 13/03/2024 12:43

Dispiriting, though, isn't it? The lack of journalistic nous. And not like it's just him.

pronounsbundlebundle · 13/03/2024 13:06

duc748 · 13/03/2024 12:43

Dispiriting, though, isn't it? The lack of journalistic nous. And not like it's just him.

Mediocre men in jobs someone with intelligence and journalistic integrity like Hannah Barnes should have - in my opinion of course.

Anneinavan · 13/03/2024 13:07

Noticed in my BBC app that this decision is listed under ‘Politics’. It has a sub heading of health but I’m guessing it’s not a coincidence that they are implying this is a purely political decision….

No more puberty blockers for children from the NHS - reported in the Times!
Poinsettiasarevile · 13/03/2024 13:11

Can i see the Euan Davies David Bell interview anywhere? Not sure how to get to it via bbc sounds.

pronounsbundlebundle · 13/03/2024 13:31

https://twitter.com/Wommando/status/1767655895415029983?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Youtube link in this tweet. Which I very much agree with. Evan Davis could not have been more clear in his bias. Kept on and on referring to 'trans' children even when Dr Bell had been crystal clear about why that was wrong AND PART OF THE PROBLEM.

https://twitter.com/Wommando/status/1767655895415029983?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/03/2024 13:54

Anneinavan · 13/03/2024 13:07

Noticed in my BBC app that this decision is listed under ‘Politics’. It has a sub heading of health but I’m guessing it’s not a coincidence that they are implying this is a purely political decision….

The BBC's culpability for promoting this to children immense. I suspect initially there'll be an exercise in removing much of the material promoting transgenderism to infants and primary aged children as the dangers of what they've been selling emerges.

But it will take a while, so great has been the ideological trans capture of this once ethical institution.

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