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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No more puberty blockers for children from the NHS - reported in the Times!

976 replies

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/03/2024 16:21

This is massive - and long overdue

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/97ce2e81-2884-42f5-bb82-2a2778f2cc91?shareToken=9568e79f0683beea68ffe5e978b05a29

OP posts:
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99
Guavafish1 · 13/03/2024 01:21

The clinical trials will provide a evidence based framework on how to prescribe puberty blockers in the future.

AvacadoFieldsForever · 13/03/2024 01:26

fromorbit · 13/03/2024 01:12

Breaking...

In response, a Scottish Government spokesperson said: “The Scottish Government and NHS Scotland are engaged with NHS England on its planned study into the use of puberty blockers in young people’s gender identity healthcare, and discussions are ongoing to determine what future engagement is appropriate.”
Scottish Government in talks with English health officials after decision to stop prescribing puberty blockers
https://www.scotsman.com/health/scottish-government-in-talks-with-english-health-officials-after-decision-to-stop-prescribing-puberty-blockers-4552992

Are the SNP and NHS Scotland going to back down? Or are they playing for time? Are the SNP thinking going into an election as the pro experiments on kids party maybe not has much appeal. Lots of Scottish doctors certainly won't want to be guilty of continuing with blockers after this.

Also pressure on Labour to either welcome or denounce NHS England's position. If Scottish Labour become anti puberty blockers that is a BIG advantage in the election.

My guess is they just keep trying to play both sides as they do with the prison question- all “safe spaces” and “lived experience” and “most vulnerable” while they skim across the experimenting on children aspect.

AvacadoFieldsForever · 13/03/2024 01:30

Guavafish1 · 13/03/2024 01:21

The clinical trials will provide a evidence based framework on how to prescribe puberty blockers in the future.

But this should have been started 10 ago!
Not after well meaning amateurs in schools and youth groups started pushing vulnerable malleable children onto a medical pathway of un-evidenced surgery and medication on their healthy bodies.

NotTerfNorCis · 13/03/2024 01:42

Very apt this happened on 'detransitioner day'. All those heart rending stories of (almost entirely) girls who made irreversible changes they soon regretted...

Guavafish1 · 13/03/2024 01:45

Most drugs given to children have no clinical trial data.

Early results will come out in 2 years. So hopefully the first of the prescribing guideline will be started then.

Would have been a good idea... but clinical trials are very expensive. So this will be interesting to see how these will be conducted. There will be a lot of participants, seeing as there is a large waiting list so no problem with recruitment.

NotBadConsidering · 13/03/2024 02:12

Encouraging news. Not fully there yet world wide.

LargeSquareRock · 13/03/2024 02:18

Meadowbird · 12/03/2024 22:10

I do feel so sorry for the parents who’ve gone along with it, thinking they were doing the right thing. It must be tough to live with.

Helen Joyce spoke about this- some of them will never be able to accept the harm done to their kids so they will fight on for decades like post-WW2 Japanese soldiers.

Many of these families took on their child’s trans identity as their family identity- having a lovely time fighting schools, doctors and all the other bigots out there. These poor children couldn’t detransition even if they wanted to.

Poinsettiasarevile · 13/03/2024 04:49

I dont share your optimism on the trial @Guavafish1 . Any interim results at 2 years may provide initial data on safety but in terms of outcomes will be meaningless, it is too early. Also, trials of treatments with a known side effect will have to put limitations on the degree of those side effects before the trial is stopped. For trials of cancer drugs for example, this isn't a consideration, it is only life threatening side effects that are monitored and would stop a trial if seen. But, in these trials, where the condition is far from life threatening and quality of life will be paramount. I suspect they will have to monitor IQ amongst other things like bone density.

What drop in IQ in children do you think is acceptable? What drop in IQ do you think ethics committees will think is acceptable? What potential drop in IQ would you consent to?

Rather than having interim results at 2 years, is just as likely that the trial will be stopped early on safety grounds.

This is the thing about science done well. Things like safety, ethics and measurable outcomes matter.

And yes, trials are expensive. Do you know how alot of them are funded? Via charities. Think of all the £££££ that has been raked in by the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids and spunked on gender propaganda. If these organisations gave a shiny shit about kids they would have been funding these trials years ago. This is THE ONLY area of medicine in children i am aware of that the major organisations involved want less data and no trials. Why is that?? Could it be that the notion of 'trans kids' is vital so middle aged men can be justified in donning bad wigs and make up and calling themselves women?? Are these kids just acceptable collateral damage in the quest for unwavering validation of male lesbians? I have wracked my brains, and this is the only explanation i can think of.

BonfireLady · 13/03/2024 06:02

I'm going to echo a couple of other posters' comments and ask what's really changed here?

Here is an <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2023.11.26-221155/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/26/use-of-puberty-blockers-doubled-since-nhs-clampdown/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">article which talks about them being stopped since July 2022.

From the article:

At least 100 children – some as young 12 – have been put on the drugs to prevent puberty since July 2022, when health officials said the practice would be stopped outside of clinical trials after a damning review of children’s gender services.

That said, perhaps the important phrase is "would be stopped" and actually what's happened here is the outcome of this consultation.

Obviously it's all moving in the right direction but again (to be a little pessimistic, sorry), the fact that 16 year olds are getting letters to invite them in to the adult pathway, which is WPATH-aligned, is awful. The court case to challenge this is coming up on 26th March. Hopefully the release of the WPATH files will be a big help in this.

BonfireLady · 13/03/2024 06:07

Urgh. Just tried to sort out the weird link formatting but it didn't work.
Trying again:

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2023.11.26-221155/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/26/use-of-puberty-blockers-doubled-since-nhs-clampdown" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2023.11.26-221155

Or

  1. <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2023.11.26-221155/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/26/use-of-puberty-blockers-doubled-since-nhs-clampdown" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/26/use-of-puberty-blockers-doubled-since-nhs-clampdown/
BonfireLady · 13/03/2024 06:10

I give up!

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 06:17

@BonfireLady

This is what's changed:

x.com/hannahsbee/status/1767637851036910024?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

No more puberty blockers for children from the NHS - reported in the Times!
WarriorN · 13/03/2024 06:18

No more exceptional cases

Complete cessation

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 06:20

It probably is the consultation, but it's significant on the global stage

Helleofabore · 13/03/2024 06:30

I read this announcement as a stronger worded confirmation of what has been released before. My immediate thought was it was a reaction to the wpath leak and to the upcoming Cass report. And they also mentioned the consultation.

Each time something like this is announced it builds the momentum. For instance, a German review of the evidence that was released a week or so ago confirmed that despite a couple of new papers, there has been no evidence that supports the improvement of children’s lives with these treatments.

My concern is that there are parents out there ignoring all this and consenting for their children to undergo these treatments under the ‘experimental’ guidelines. Have those parents really investigated it. Or been subject to the ideological assurances we see here and on social media. The parents that were also referred to on the Wpath leaks who were unable to understand the risks and consented anyway. I mean look at some of the posters we have seen in the past week or so. The depth of ideological belief and refusal to read and interrogate the studies is concerning.

Ingenieur · 13/03/2024 06:47

@Poinsettiasarevile

Before a clinical trial can receive funding you have to be able to say clearly what medical condition the treatment is supposed to be treating

Quite. Until they can demonstrate that the distress these kids are feeling is actually caused by a "mismatch in gender" then there is no hope of demonstrating that there is even a specific condition to be treated (as distinct from general body dysmorphia).

Until they can demonstrate the existence of a "gender identity" or even define it satisfactorily, then any research that follows is automatically fruit from a poisoned tree.

EasternStandard · 13/03/2024 06:54

duc748 · 13/03/2024 00:55

So pleased to hear this. Let's hope it's the start of better things. If this is the chance to kick those gaslighting fuckers into touch, I hope it can grabbed with both hands.

It’s a significant shift

What parent would sign their children up for a clinical trial? You’d have to be quite extreme on gender ideology to pursue it.

So much better than normalised via the NHS, it will give most adults a break in what they are doing

EasternStandard · 13/03/2024 07:02

Ingenieur · 13/03/2024 06:47

@Poinsettiasarevile

Before a clinical trial can receive funding you have to be able to say clearly what medical condition the treatment is supposed to be treating

Quite. Until they can demonstrate that the distress these kids are feeling is actually caused by a "mismatch in gender" then there is no hope of demonstrating that there is even a specific condition to be treated (as distinct from general body dysmorphia).

Until they can demonstrate the existence of a "gender identity" or even define it satisfactorily, then any research that follows is automatically fruit from a poisoned tree.

Good

I think a minority of adults will be disappointed they cannot push gender ideology on to children as they have been. It’s incredibly harmful. How on earth did anyone find it ok

WarriorN · 13/03/2024 07:03

At least 100 children – some as young 12 – have been put on the drugs to prevent puberty since July 2022, when health officials said the practice would be stopped outside of clinical trials after a damning review of children’s gender services.

I can't find the info - but in the back of my mind was there a proposal to collect data from 100 children? As part of the research? These are the exceptional circs? Is it possible that these children were already under the GIDs when the initial announcements were made and so were able to qualify?

Sorry, I don't know how these things work

Propertylover · 13/03/2024 07:20

I thought the same as warrior that the 100 children linked to the previous communications.

I hope these children are monitored throughout their life gaining valuable data on the impact of PB.

I agree with a pp any trial will require rigorous monitoring and may stop if there are adverse affects.

pickledandpuzzled · 13/03/2024 07:21

This is THE ONLY area of medicine in children i am aware of that the major organisations involved want less data and no trials. Why is that??

It’s the only area I can think of that goes round recruiting children, too. Most medical charities are hoping to reduce the incidence of the condition they are researching and treating. They don’t tour schools suggesting children need treatment.

Brainworm · 13/03/2024 07:21

There are so many issues that are difficult to reconcile in this area, the main one being TRAs objecting to healthcare professionals insisting their care is given the same high level of attention as other areas of medicine.

I think, ultimately, the key issues link to what is considered a good health outcome. Medicine is interested in patients functioning well mentally, physically, and socially, and having a positive sense of well-being. TRAs are interested in people having their gender identities validated, regardless of the impact that this has on mental, physical and social outcomes. Perhaps a more balanced way of putting it is that they are wedded to the idea that affirmation and validation will automatically address any issues with functioning.

Hopefully, the new clinics will see a more rigorous approach to measuring outcomes for patients they treat, with patient satisfaction and other subjective variables being considered alongside other, more objective variables.

The key issue is that of formulation. Patients with trans identities often arrive with fixed ideas about their symptoms and the cause- my body is wrong, I need treatment to change my body, regardless of any contraindications arising. They believe that no other outcomes to that of changing their bodies (halting puberty and/or changing hormone levels) are significant.

A healthcare professional's formulation should include exploring a range of potential underlying causes for the presenting symptoms (dysphoria) and should aim to treat the causes rather than the symptoms.

'Power and oppression' and post modern narratives can be like kryptonite to well educated/professional healthcare practitioner's critical thinking skill. We see the negative impacts of inequality and discrimination on health outcomes for marginalised groups and are frustrated by being limited to treating the symptoms of this.

There is validity to claims that patient's healthcare experiences are often that of experiencing further marginalisation. However, related research often flags up issue to do with marginalised groups not being fully informed about the full range of possible treatments, or not being considered for the full rage, and too little research being undertaken relating to outcomes (or symptoms) pertaining to the specific group. There is a widespread movement relating to 'doing with' rather than 'doing to' when it comes to research and development.

TRAs stand out here. They reject the 'doing with' and consider anything other than 'do as we say' oppressive. I think this may come from a similar place as a functioning alcoholic not wanting treatment as they fear having to give up alcohol, and self harmers fearing losing the relief that comes from cutting. I expect many with gender dysphoria fear losing the relief that comes from their gender identity.

However, those working in addiction services (and, interestingly, many effective treatments for anorexia and self harm are based on these being conceptualised as an addiction) have been more successful in navigating (tolerating?) patient anger and resentment. They do adopt approaches that seek to empower patients and 'do-with' but are clear that the outcomes they are working towards are based on improving functioning.

In short, I don't think there is any place for treating 'identity' in medicine. Identity in itself should not require medical intervention, the exception being when it negatively impacts on functioning. When this happens, the goal of treatment should be to return to full functioning.

endofthelinefinally · 13/03/2024 07:27

Any clinical trial involving under 18s is going to be difficult to get through ethics. However, ethics committees are desperate for people to join them. So. I would want to know who was evaluating/ approving protocols. I would worry about which experts were on the committee.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/03/2024 07:35

Brainworm · 13/03/2024 07:21

There are so many issues that are difficult to reconcile in this area, the main one being TRAs objecting to healthcare professionals insisting their care is given the same high level of attention as other areas of medicine.

I think, ultimately, the key issues link to what is considered a good health outcome. Medicine is interested in patients functioning well mentally, physically, and socially, and having a positive sense of well-being. TRAs are interested in people having their gender identities validated, regardless of the impact that this has on mental, physical and social outcomes. Perhaps a more balanced way of putting it is that they are wedded to the idea that affirmation and validation will automatically address any issues with functioning.

Hopefully, the new clinics will see a more rigorous approach to measuring outcomes for patients they treat, with patient satisfaction and other subjective variables being considered alongside other, more objective variables.

The key issue is that of formulation. Patients with trans identities often arrive with fixed ideas about their symptoms and the cause- my body is wrong, I need treatment to change my body, regardless of any contraindications arising. They believe that no other outcomes to that of changing their bodies (halting puberty and/or changing hormone levels) are significant.

A healthcare professional's formulation should include exploring a range of potential underlying causes for the presenting symptoms (dysphoria) and should aim to treat the causes rather than the symptoms.

'Power and oppression' and post modern narratives can be like kryptonite to well educated/professional healthcare practitioner's critical thinking skill. We see the negative impacts of inequality and discrimination on health outcomes for marginalised groups and are frustrated by being limited to treating the symptoms of this.

There is validity to claims that patient's healthcare experiences are often that of experiencing further marginalisation. However, related research often flags up issue to do with marginalised groups not being fully informed about the full range of possible treatments, or not being considered for the full rage, and too little research being undertaken relating to outcomes (or symptoms) pertaining to the specific group. There is a widespread movement relating to 'doing with' rather than 'doing to' when it comes to research and development.

TRAs stand out here. They reject the 'doing with' and consider anything other than 'do as we say' oppressive. I think this may come from a similar place as a functioning alcoholic not wanting treatment as they fear having to give up alcohol, and self harmers fearing losing the relief that comes from cutting. I expect many with gender dysphoria fear losing the relief that comes from their gender identity.

However, those working in addiction services (and, interestingly, many effective treatments for anorexia and self harm are based on these being conceptualised as an addiction) have been more successful in navigating (tolerating?) patient anger and resentment. They do adopt approaches that seek to empower patients and 'do-with' but are clear that the outcomes they are working towards are based on improving functioning.

In short, I don't think there is any place for treating 'identity' in medicine. Identity in itself should not require medical intervention, the exception being when it negatively impacts on functioning. When this happens, the goal of treatment should be to return to full functioning.

What a powerful and informative post @Brainworm
In particular this:
"TRAs stand out here. They reject the 'doing with' and consider anything other than 'do as we say' oppressive. I think this may come from a similar place as a functioning alcoholic not wanting treatment as they fear having to give up alcohol, and self harmers fearing losing the relief that comes from cutting. I expect many with gender dysphoria fear losing the relief that comes from their gender identity".

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 13/03/2024 07:42

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/03/2024 07:35

What a powerful and informative post @Brainworm
In particular this:
"TRAs stand out here. They reject the 'doing with' and consider anything other than 'do as we say' oppressive. I think this may come from a similar place as a functioning alcoholic not wanting treatment as they fear having to give up alcohol, and self harmers fearing losing the relief that comes from cutting. I expect many with gender dysphoria fear losing the relief that comes from their gender identity".

I think influence on children is part of it

Hence the quick succession of tweets about where it can continue