Pro-trans and feminist

[niadainud]

How is this possible?

I genuinely don't understand how you can believe that biological sex isn't real and believe that people can identify as whatever they like, but also claim to be a feminist.

You claim to support women, but you don't agree with there being a biological definition of "woman".

Please can someone explain to me how this works!

Even if you claim that the term women and female include some men, you can still claim to be fighting for the group you’ve now designated “women”.

Admittedly many such people usually bang on continually about the fact that some men are women, especially once they’ve pushed their way into power within women’s groups, but there’s nothing stopping them from claiming to be something they aren’t.

In addition, I’m sure there are also some genuine people who think women’s rights are important, but haven’t bothered to do the critical thinking about how allowing some men into women’s spaces and counting some men as women under the law undermines those spaces and laws. Presumably they would say it’s a tiny minority and not that important, or dismiss it in some other way, but I’m sure there are still genuine people out there who don’t see it as incompatible.

Because people can hold more than one stance and lots of them do? You might just as well ask how you can be a feminist and be pro life? It’s unusual but possible.

No, I can’t see this either, OP.

If you believe a woman is anyone who says they’re a woman, then “women’s rights” would have to include “male women’s” rights to do what they’re doing now: invading women’s single-sex spaces and services, terrorising women in prison, cheating their way to women’s sports prizes etc.

There would be no way of defending women’s single-sex rights. And feminism is about defending women’s rights.

Strong agree.

This is why many women currently fighting for women’s and girls rights don’t call themselves feminists and some of those are notable ie. MF and KJK. There are others.

There was a massive spat about this on Twitter a couple of years ago and notable women were made to answer whether they were feminists or not.

Feminists who were in positions of gatekeeping women’s domains are the ones who sold out to the cult and helped to land us in the position we are now in.

For the avoidance of doubt, I describe myself as a sex realist.

deleted by self

Because there is also an ideal that feminism is there to fight for other minorities. That feminism is about everyone’s equality because in fighting the patriarchy, you are progressing everyone who has been oppressed.

Because, women are the mothers of the world.

Who is KJK?

Kellie Jay Keen

If you believe the whole world is about Baddies vs Goodies i.e. oppressors vs oppressed then every issue becomes simplified along these lines.
And some women think 'feminism' should be an ever expanding tent for all the poor, downtrodden, pure-of-heart oppressed groups against the most evil nemesis and source of all problems in the world i.e. white men aka "The Patriarchy™".

(Ironically, this ideological belief actually lends credence to the notion that white men are inherently better and superior to everyone else because it's pretty impressive if they are the cause of all the world's problems and the only group to have true agency. 😂)

Oh, Posie Parker.

Because the whole thing is presented as an absolute issue, rather than acknowledging the spectrum. (I mean with the rights here, not that sex itself is a spectrum).

I am pro many trans rights... I think someone should be able to dress as they please, be called what they please, have consensual relationships with other adults, do what hobbies they want etc. I think it shouldn't preclude someone from a career necessarily... politics, medicine, teaching etc

But single sex places still need to exist... prisons, changing rooms, wards etc. And privacy and dignity shouldn't be over ridden.

Thinking about it, would it be helpful to collate a list of self proclaimed feminists who espouse trans ideology?

Many of them are in political positions or prominent positions of power, so when we are urged to write letters/lobby/vote for these women, people can quickly see what they are about.

For example, my MP was Caroline Lucas. Caroline claims she is a feminist. It is stated on her website. However, when I wrote to her prompted by a SexMatters campaign and asked her to support the biological sex rights of women and girls in law, she wasn’t interested. She didn’t support the bill. She didn’t even attend parliament for the discussions. I wasted a lot of time. My energy would have been better spent elsewhere.

It saves time not having to explain the ins and outs of what they said, when they said it etc to every newcomer who enters into the boards trying to work out who supports what.

Yeah. Think she goes by KJK now though. PP was an online pseudonym for a time, I believe.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. This topic is enough to make you go a bit mad.

What drives me insane is all the woolly "but how do you feeeeel?" and "what is your truth?" nonsense when we're trying to discuss matters of biology. I thought the whole point of hard science was that it's not a matter of opinion.

(Just edited for a typo.)

This is the magic of TWAW.

If TWAW, and feminism if for W by W then there is no issue. There are no men involved as TWAW. So the circle becomes perfect & beautiful and those shy of actual thought are safe in their delusions.

This all starts and ends with language.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with TWAM. It's accurate, and harms no one.

Whereas insisting TWAW causes untold harm as we are seeing play out now. Most directly to women & girls. but all of society is harmed when we start building the future on the shifting sands of lies, deceit and willful ignorance.

TWAM - that's ok.

I'm not sure that it would, actually. I think we're just reaching the point where many of those people who hadn't really thought it through are being forced to do so, and moreover where it's becoming clear that thinking sex is real, unchangeable and sometimes important really isn't a fringe or unpopular view among, for example, voters. So some of the people who formerly went along with gender ideology would like to forget that they ever did so - and however tempting it is to go "but you SAID...", we shouldn't draw attention to their inconsistency. The way this gets fixed is via a sea change whereby nobody can quite remember who used to think the crazy stuff, but anyway, that comes to be all in the past now.

They just identify as feminists.

Easy mistake to make nowadays, when words mean bugger all.

From many people’s perspective, feminism is about overthrowing the patriarchy, which harms men as well as women. Women bear the brunt of it but men suffer awfully from the patriarchy as well, especially gender non conforming men who are particularly at risk.
for example I feel comfortable walking down a street on a busy night out, I would just blend in, a gender non conforming man would be heckled, spat at, beaten up depending where they are. As far as historical evidence shows gender non conforming males have existed for a very long time and generally have a poor quality of life, which doesn’t seem fair to me. many of these types of men, gay men etc cannot live a “normal” life and end up isolated.
again bringing it back to me, I’m a woman and have suffered as a result of that but being in a relationship with a man and a child I am accepted by society as opposed to a gnc man who may be single etc and falls through the cracks
its also important to clarify many trans people do believe in biological sex, not all trans people are chronically online
theyre just normal people at the end of the day. When I see a young girl saying they’re a trans man but presenting feminine I’m sceptical but there’s so many just average trans people who just want to get on with their lives :)
just a different perspective and something to think about, I don’t want a dogpile of angry comments like I’ve had in the past please 🙏

I've no personal issue with trans people. I have an issue with being used by a proportion of them as a human shield or, in the case of the degenerate bunch, as an unconsenting prop in their fantasy life. And I'm not their fucking mother, it's not my role in life to support and protect them.

What do you mean by "pro-trans"? Because to me that implies that anyone who doesn't believe TWAW is anti-trans.

I'm not anti-trans, but TWANW They should be free to wear what they want etc etc. But male people, of any identity, need to stay out of womens/female spaces.

Is there such a thing as ‘trans’ though?

Yes of course. It's morphed over the years into what is, now, a fashion statement. Diluted, like punk was, into elements you dip in and out of, as it suits. Naturally the transsexuals we were originally thinking of are still amongst us, and still just getting on with it, but the fashion crowd and fetish crowd and whining middle class victim crowd are drowning them.

If it’s not possible to change sex and it really isn’t possible, what are people transing to or from?

Absolutely right, it's not possible to change sex. It never will be. Sex is determined at the moment of conception. There are no mistakes, no wrong bodies. My friend was born with VEDS, an ultimately fatal genetic condition. I'd argue that HER situation was far more "wrong body" than an intense young man's porn addled brain taking him down the sissification route.
My dear darling friend could no more remove VEDS from her genetic code than Eddie Izzard remove male from his.

"...but men suffer awfully from the patriarchy as well, especially gender non conforming men who are particularly at risk. for example I feel comfortable walking down a street on a busy night out, I would just blend in, a gender non conforming man would be heckled, spat at, beaten up depending where they are."

This is also Alok's view. Poor poor Alok, life is so hard.

Thing is.... I don't have much sympathy - I've been heckled, cat called and sexually harrassed walking down the street since the age of 11 for wearing my school uniform.

If Alok took his Nan's cardigan off he could stop it all and escape - I couldn't.

It's such a luxury belief it disgusts me - just performing as oppressed rather than actually being oppressed.