Will Labour introduce Self ID & curb free speech?

[Heylo]

I’ve never voted Tory, but as a lesbian woman who plans to have children (and obviously as a woman!) I am and will be part of the three groups most affected by Gender Ideology; women, lesbian and soon I hope a Mother. I am really worried about what happens when Labour takes power. The Tories have been rubbish no arguments there but at least they are finally moving against the steam rolling of Gender Ideology. I’m thinking Labour are not that fiscally different to the Tories and have said they will not cap bankers bonuses and they don’t intend to increase public spending in a significant way.

Really concerned about more gender identity clinics popping up under Labour and Keir Starmer possibly curbing free speech via so - called hate laws (in the feminist circle i run in we all agree this is a euphemism for silencing women about men in female prisons, rape shelters and other areas where women are vulnerable).

wonder what everyone else thinking?

Every school I have ever worked has toilets with door gaps. Most women’s do at the moment -You are incorrect.

Unlike you I am a qualified teacher. I have worked as a teacher in many British schools.

I said outside of schools. You may be a qualified teacher but your reading comprehension needs some work.

You mean mixed sex?

Given that sex motived crimes in mixed sex toilets and changing facilities are much higher than single sex, I'd say no they aren't cool anymore.

International Aid and Welfare Charities have long advocated for single sex provision because of the sheer number of assaults when it comes to mixed sex toilets.

You can't challenge the behaviour of males in mixed sex provision because of the risk of being arrested for a hate crime cos transphobia either, so you are back to the problem of spotting the 'genuine cases' versus the chancers and pervets.

It's not for women to police and facilitate and suffer the consequences of this shit show.

You embarrassed yourself and then edited your post to hide the evidence.

I'm not qualified to work in UK state schools, which is different to not being qualified.

Given my local primary school currently has holes in the roof, I wonder where the money to replace perfectly good doors with these full length ones, which cause issues should a child have a health crisis., will come from.

Ditto the high school plus the ability for kids to vape / shag undisturbed.

Of course we could just stick to single sex and avoid a whole bunch of these issues.

But obviously it's all about just wanting to pee...

... except women and girls would also like to pee safely whilst maintaining their dignity rather than just peeing.

Given that the initial point was very specifically about why your background as a floating voter with a lack of knowledge of grassroots LP activism would explain why you couldn’t get your head around why longstanding LP members have problems with the direction the party has taken in relation to women, I’m unsurprised that you also chose to miss it.

But then you tend to choose to miss a lot.

I didn't choose to miss it. I agree with Alexandra that it's a valid choice for a lot of other women to prioritise death in childbirth, women in poverty, VAWG as a voting issue.
It's very dismissive to claim other women are stupid/"captured"/harming women for making a different choice to you.

PP82 Yep I agree I read it wrong and pressed send accidentally before I edited it. Well done - you were quick to read it and reply in the time it took me to edit! I am multitasking badly tonight. Your ‘gotcha’ on my too-hasty reply reminds me of a gleeful pupil who thinks he’s got better of Miss. I am not embarrassed that easily.

PP82 You are wrong about toilets in my part of the country. All the women’s toilet blocks I have been to in our nearest town’s shops have gaps at the bottom of the doors. I know because of having to know for medical reasons. I would have not been so intent on noticing them if they were so vitally important for my family’s safety. Our pub has one woman’s toilet and it doesn’t have a gap at the bottom of the door but then it doesn’t close properly because of the bottom expanding from all the liquids it’s been in contact with. So that’s handy. And, of course, none of the disabled toilets in town have door gaps at the bottom. That means they fully enclosed. There have been at least 8 cases taken to court of disabled and abled bodied women raped in disabled toilets around the UK recently when I did a google search (didn’t think I would ever need to google that so that was only a quick count of the first couple of screens).

I have seen your views on 2 threads and think you are very wrong about toilets.

I am hoping to put this sensitively. You said yourself on another thread on more than one occasion that you have been very seriously assaulted in toilets but you have never sought counselling or even got sympathy because you said all the women around you had had similar experiences. Which is awful. But you think mixed sex toilets are best despite your experience.

It was documented that children were raped inside British schools premises at the rate of at least one per day (this was before the move to private enclosed mixed sex loos) and mixed sex toilets have been documented as statistically more dangerous.

You say you have had safeguarding training. You should have had multiple training sessions having said you worked in maternity wards and then in education for twenty years (in various countries) in a career in teacher training and a consultant. You must know prevention is key. But if there is an incident, procedures must be followed and help, including trauma counselling, is paramount for the victim. It should not be dismissed as normal or inevitable.

And earlier on this thread you said you want to move into child mental health next. With respect, you really need to particularly think again about safeguarding. If you are not bothered about the increase of deaths, medical incidents, assaults, antisocial behaviour such as drug use and self harm in mixed sex private toilet cubicles - maybe just the fact that when you do a fire evacuation as a teacher or education support worker it could save your life (in the time you save checking private cubicles). I know having worked in schools and had a fire drill.

Anyway it’s far too late - I should have been asleep a few hours ago. Apologies for any typos and grammatical errors in advance.

I've had wine. But I don't think bringing up posters experiences across several threads is OK. It feels stalker-y to me.

PP82 Yesterday 17:32

Fair enough, you work with children in an educational role. But what was so objectionable in my reply for you to ask for it to be deleted?

I was responding to pp
So if we have ‘gender neutral’ mixed sex toilets, they have to be fully enclosed.
You can tell by the way I used the "quote" function.

Also I think most people realise mixed gender and mixed sex are the same thing. I don't think I've seen any spaces that are single sex and mixed gender

All this shows is that you know nothing about history and nothing about communism.

One of the hallmarks of fascism is the role the state plays in the lives of the people. It is overwhelming and total. It is the same in Communist countries - no matter what the utopian ideal that lay behind its foundation.

Christ. I missed this.

The Stasi and the KGB were a great bunch of friendly fellows.

Or Khmer Rouge.

Or the modern communist party in China who execute more people than anyone else even when adjusted for population size and have actual concentration camps.

I despair at the level of general knowledge of some who then get upset at being not taken seriously after they've patronised and lectured others for somehow being stupid and uneducated.

I cannot believe you have been an educator for as long as you claim.

Feminism centres women. It lifts up the voices of women and prioritises their interests. It ensures that female needs are not entirely sidelined by male privileges or male interests.

Sex is real. There are two sexes. This is one of the basic foundational categories of the human race. It has consequences. Feminsim recognises these consequences and seeks to ameliorate them where possible, and provide protection for them in certain other kinds of circumstance.

Equality is not the exact same as 'being the same'. We have separate sporting categories, for example because female excellence and achievement would be over-shadowed by male excellence if events were mixed sex. A female athlete can be the very best of her sex and can work just as hard as a male athlete - why should she not be rewarded fairly or appropriately for that.

We have separate categories also for reasons of female safety.

Your version of 'inclusion' and 'equality' means that women and girls would continually lose out to men and boys and male interests would always be prioritised.

@SinnerBoy I didn't ask for your reply to be deleted. People keep accusing me of getting posts deleted. I've only ever asked for 3 posts to be deleted on mumsnet, all from the same thread, and I dont think it was one I actually commented on. Two referenced anti semitic conspiracy theories and one used an extremely offensive term to refer to trans sex workers. I never saw your reply and am now curious as to what it said tbh.

I've worked in education for 18 of the last 23 years, in different roles.

I know that equality is not the same as 'being the same' and never claimed that.

The importance of sex is contested and not as simple as you claim.

No they don't! Every single department store I'm aware of, for one, has gaps at the bottom of toilet doors.

And even if they did have full length doors the access corridor would still be mixed sex. This would be especially concerning in the night time economy and it would still add in an unnecessary degree of discomfort for women and girls especially.

Why create a situation of discomfort for women and girls where none existed before - unless your only concern is the feelings and validation requirements of men who identify as women?Third spaces have long been the obvious solution to everyone's comfort, dignity and safety requirements.

To be clear, I am in complete agreement with The Righteous that a Tory defeat and Labour government are an inevitability. Indeed (although The Righteous will not believe me) I think that the Tories damn well deserve to lose, after 14 years of the shite they have inflicted. Furthermore, I also agree with The Righteous that the incoming Labour government will seek the Glorious Utopian Goals (as outlined by @Signalbox) of destroying WrongThinkers and stamping out BadSpeech:

• Criminalising women who say things like "transwomen are men" perhaps
• Or using pronouns that refer to a person's sex rather than their "gender identity"
• Or maybe someone raising concerns that their child has been groomed online by trans activists
• Or maybe the criminalisation of therapists who say they don't believe in gender identity

I am genuinely not at all being "snarky" or impertinent when I say that I 100% agree with The Righteous that these things will happen, or at least be aimed at by the Labour administration.

(But I suppose my tone is insufficiently obsequious, that's the real problem. I mean, you don't even need Moran's Soul Vision™ to tell that I'm a Bad Person).

Again, women can hold more than one thought in their head. You can’t prioritise VAWG if you simultaneously fail to address the recording of male offenders as female or the placing of male offenders in women’s prisons. You can claim to be concerned about the quality of maternity care women receive, but if you then their access to same-sex intimate care and single-sex wards unimportant you are selling them short. For many women who have been active in the Labour Party (which for the umpteenth time is who I was specifically talking about), the struggle to know who do vote for is is precisely because policies on gender impact women in all of the areas you and others say they prioritise.

It is women who menstruate, women who become pregnant and carry a pregnancy, it is women who give birth. The female body is generally smaller and less muscular than the male body. Women and girls have many more pressing biological needs to cater to and don't just use toilets, for example, to pee.

The Male sex drive differs from the female sex drive in some clear and obvious ways. Take a look at how the gay male clubbing scene operates if you want to understand male sexuality free from the influence of women. Observe how the vast majority of sex offenders are male; how AGP is a uniquely male phenomena. How many women are voyeurs or flashers? What chance did Sarah Everard have with that perverted, nasty excuse for a human being who abducted, raped and murdered her? Do you really think she could have survived if only she had fought back harder?

Re: the new Righteous "science" where sex is a complimacated wibbly wobbly spectrumy multifaceted contested fancy schmancy constellation of variables...

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Blimey!

You don't half advocate for them given your lack of involvement.

You were so keen to dismiss me with your 'superior' professional knowledge and experience that you didn't even read what I said before resplying. That's why I responded as I did.

It is true that I haven't lived in the UK for a long time. I can't remember the toilet doors of all venues.

As for the rest of your post, it's a lot to respond to first thing in the morning. I may come back to it. I've always worked with the toilet facilities in the settings I've worked in. I've never had any say in what they were. In nurseries and primary schools of course they were not completely enclosed cubicles. In other settings they have been, but they were only used one at a time so while 'shenanigans' were often suspected, no one was hurt, and we had staffing ratios that allowed the situation to be adequately monitored.

If i move into child mental health (more qualifications needed first) it will likely not be in settings where the issues that you were talking about arise. If schools are introducing gender neutral toilets, they must have undertaken their own risk assessments. I suggest that the discipline problems that are usually cited here when talking about toilet provision need to be dealt with through more effective behaviour management policies. They are not the fault of students but poor school management. Certainly they were rarer prior to academisation, when schools got taken over by idiots who don't understand kids and think that draconian, Victorian approaches, such as denying privacy to students, are the answer.

Provision can be made for those with medical issues, without everyone being denied privacy. It's uncomfortable having a gap at the bottom, even in a single sex setting.

Why not answer seriously? You say you want people to be criminalised for saying TWAM and you believe Labour will introduce such laws if they win the next election. How do you envisage this will be enforced? How do you think they will deter hundreds of thousands of people from speaking the truth without introducing pretty draconian sanctions for those who refuse to comply? Do you believe that a prison sentence would be justified for the worst offenders?