Will Labour introduce Self ID & curb free speech?

[Heylo]

I’ve never voted Tory, but as a lesbian woman who plans to have children (and obviously as a woman!) I am and will be part of the three groups most affected by Gender Ideology; women, lesbian and soon I hope a Mother. I am really worried about what happens when Labour takes power. The Tories have been rubbish no arguments there but at least they are finally moving against the steam rolling of Gender Ideology. I’m thinking Labour are not that fiscally different to the Tories and have said they will not cap bankers bonuses and they don’t intend to increase public spending in a significant way.

Really concerned about more gender identity clinics popping up under Labour and Keir Starmer possibly curbing free speech via so - called hate laws (in the feminist circle i run in we all agree this is a euphemism for silencing women about men in female prisons, rape shelters and other areas where women are vulnerable).

wonder what everyone else thinking?

I thought you said on another thread that you were a midwife?

Missing the point? or a difference of opinion?

For me, it boils down to priorities: Wayne Cousins, the Mets response to the protest, Police Whatsapp groups, maternity deaths of women and babies, cancer treatments, lack of DV refuges... VS Toilets and Park run results.

mmmmmmm tricky one i agree.

We have as an electorate, decided to vote in Govts that prioritise spending cuts over improvements in public services, all so we can save a few hundred in tax.
The Tories could change the legislation on loos and men in female sport in a heart beat.... but they wont.

Poster after poster is saying I"'ll be voting Tory because Labour don't know what a woman is....." its blatant BS and has far more to do with an upcoming election than Womens Rights.

Poster after poster is saying I"'ll be voting Tory because Labour don't know what a woman is....." its blatant BS and has far more to do with an upcoming election than Womens Rights.

I mean how arrogant can you be?

People can prioritise what they want in an upcoming election.

I haven't decided to vote Tory, I never have done in the past BUT I'm not going to vote for Labour under it's current format.

Jess Phillips said things that were mildly reassuring recently but there is no way I'm going to vote for a party that is intent on bringing in self ID through the back door.

How dare you tell me that this is blatant bullshit.

Of course not. But what measures have TERFs ever suggested that would have protected her? You all seem fine with the existence of prisons and the police, you just want to tinker with their policies on gender, rather than having them abolished.

I also contest the idea of male sexuality being different, especially with gay clubs as an example. I've spent enough time in them, including in the toilets (not ladies toilets, just toilets.) The behaviour there was no different to that of myself and many of my female friends when we were single. I know many men that have only had sex in committed relationships, and many women who have been extremely promiscuous. The idea that exercising your right to sexual freedom is the preserve of dirty, dirty men, especially those particularly dirty gay men, and that women are virtuous and pure, is offensive, antiquated nonsense.

Sexual violence and VAWG is a product of the patriarchy and needs top to bottom social change which won't be achieved by ostracising and othering trans people.

No. I spent two of the other 5 years working on a maternity unit.

I don't know. I'm not an expert in matters of criminal justice. I don't believe in prisons. Certainly there should be mandatory awareness training/educational sessions. Probably community service too.

It's a nice sunny Friday and there is about as much point arguing with some people as there is in hoovering a beach.

For not believing that men can be women because they say so?

Absolutely insanity.

It's like punishing a person who won't agree the sky is green or the earth is flat.

I really don't understand why you all feel the need to be so literal about everything. There is a difference between being biologically female and a woman. They often coincide but not always.

At the risk of repetition, these issues don’t exist in isolation. You seem to think you’re occupying some kind of political high ground because, for example, you prioritise maternity care. But you disparage voters who suggest that women also deserve the right to same-sex intimate care or that female mental health patients should be on single-sex wards. You’re dismissing a vast tranche of concerns that directly impact many of the things you claim are important as ‘just toilets and park run’. And many women aren’t saying they are voting Tory at all, many are saying they won’t vote or that the decision is very difficult.

If a man saying he is a woman gender gives him the right to falsify the sex on his documents with a GRC then I have every right to say that's a load of bollocks he is not female.

If falsifying those documents gives him the right to be in women's single sex spaces I have every right to say no I won't go along with this fiction.

You can claim that it is gender and not sex IF this doesn't erode on women's sex based provisions.

As it is I call bullshit and I won't go along with lies or agree that women should face actual punishment for saying that a person is a man when they are a man.

PP82 · Today 07:55

OK, fair enough. I just made that assumption as it was a reply to you.

@SinnerBoy care to write again in such way as it doesn't breach guidelines for any reason? I'm curious.

@Alexandra2001
For me, it boils down to priorities: Wayne Cousins, the Mets response to the protest, Police Whatsapp groups, maternity deaths of women and babies, cancer treatments, lack of DV refuges... VS Toilets and Park run results.

This is a false dichotomy though. No one here thinks the former group aren't important. They are a mix of things that are very hard to change (male violence) and things that are in a poor state because of underfunding (which there's no guarantee any political party will address).

Putting males into women's toilets, & parkrun results (and you somehow forgot to mention here all the other sports, changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards etc) is a conscious decision based on a flawed and harmful ideology. Politicians and other influential people think that it is right and good that men have the right to intrude on women's services, and that children can be taught about anti-scientific concepts like being born in the wrong body. There are few issues remaining in society where the solution to a great injustice is just for reasoned debate to take place, most of our problems sadly require billions of pounds of investment to tackle adequately, but this issue is one of those issues, so it is worth focussing on.

OK. Well good luck under the new regime 😉

'Reasoned debate???' Is that what you call what happens here?

You may not understand matters of criminal justice system but you must have some understanding of human nature.

Think of something you believe to be an absolute fact and that has significant importance in your life. Do you think that “awareness training” telling you that this thing you believe is not true or important will change this?

I believe that TWAM. You could hold a gun to my head and I will still believe that TWAM. So a mandatory awareness course and a spot of community service (alongside all the other wrong thinkers and heretics) isn’t really going to achieve anything is it?

You may not be an expert in matters of criminal justice but you must see that laws that criminalise more than half the population will seriously undermine the system?

Or perhaps that is exactly what you want, as someone who describes themselves as (I can’t remember the exact phrase) anti-state.

I'm just imagining handsmaid tale like scenes of sinner women, being forced to perform community services for not agreeing that woman gender men are woman sex. Because that's what easier self ID, under Labour's proposals could do in conjunction with your proposed punishments.

Pretty fucking dystopian.

I'm with JKR on this. I'm not prepared to be compelled to tell harmful lies.

Or maybe this is more what you had in mind @PP82?

And choice of the word 'regime ' is very very interesting.

Of course. Because parents want to harm their children. The children should go with those nice men who offer them sweeties.

Well, I'd say the question posed in the thread title has been well and truly answered, with icing on top.

So what is the difference, PP? Seriously, what makes someone a woman other than the fact that they’re born female?

Do you really think children grow up in a vacuum that means that, so long as their parents do not interfere with them, they will remain uninterfered with?

If you're biologically female and not a woman, you're a girl.