JK Rowling has sadly opened her mouth again

[DayAndAge]

How the metro can put out this tweet which effectively suggests a woman shouldn't be allowed to speak is beyond me. Shocked but not surprised. Comments are heartening though, as is the ratio.

I mean, there'd have to be a committee of people much smarter and more educated on the matter than me to set out the protocol. But off the top of my head;

• How long they have held they are (in this case) a woman (as evidenced by social media posts / witnesses).
• If they've undergone any surgery. I get that it's the minority of cases, but for arguments sake, if a trans woman had been taking hormones since they were 12 and had had their penis removed, can't see that it would matter even if they were in a women's prison (aside from the "slippery slope" argument, of course).
• If a doctor can validate that they have been prescribed hormones or similar, a year or more ago.
• If a blood test confirms hormones have been taken.

Of course men who happen to of committed crime, and at the same time and by chance also happened to have a genuine epiphany that they were were trans women, would be unlucky. But the overwhelming majority of cases would be fairer.

I can't imagine any men having their willies taken off, just to avoid men's prison. But if they did, at least it would be almost impossible for them to commit rape, either then or when they were released.

So you'd argue its worth doing all of the above, wasting time and resources no woman has ever had to "get it right".

I'd argue all this time you lay out above would be better reforming how rape trials are handled. But as that's to benefit the woman, its less likely to get any traction.

It's reminiscent of the other thread about men being drugged up to be able to breastfeed - all the time and money spent enabling men to breastfeed while women are basically left to fend for themselves.

Again, what is ‘genuinely’ trans. And just putting any male, even without a penis, into a female single sex space makes that space mixed sex.

Do you think that removing a penis is some kind of magic eraser for them being male, or for them not having more power physically over women or for them not having male pattern violence? Are you arguing for them to be considered women? Or to go into a vulnerable male space like all other vulnerable male people?

I love the Metro. We get through a lot of newspaper for putting muddy things on so I collect a few copies when I can. I don't read it, it is a rubbish paper in every respect apart from its mud proofing properties. (Ditto the Waitrose paper).

JKR has my total support.

The facilities and processes to protect vulnerable offenders already exist within the criminal justice system. There’s no reason why a transwoman convicted of a non violent offence needs to be housed with male rapists and murderers. The male estate should be able to manage that offender if a custodial sentence is necessary, if it can’t then that’s an issue for the male estate to sort out.

Just because they don't have a penis, it's doesn't mean that a male cants sexually assault a woman in a million different ways.

And transwomen are men, and have the sexual offending rates consistent with their sex.

They have been trying that in Scotland - assessing the "risk" case-by-case. However, the "risk" is only examined in the sense of "risk to the male prisoner". The risk to the women in the women's prison, and the needs of the women, were considered not at all, or they wouldn't have put violent sex offenders like "Katie" Dolatowski in a women's prison.

As for distinguishing between those "who are genuinely trans" and "who are clearly making it up" - irrelevant. They are all male and they all belong in men's prisons. None of them are "entitled to" be housed with non-consenting women.

You might like to read this.

The problem with committees is that both WHO and the UN (as examples) have both had "specialists" put on committees and they have been, in the main, biased towards the trans agenda.
I suspect that anyone that was put on a committee of the type that you are suggested that didn't believe that TWAW would be hounded out as have many academics, celebrities and just general people.

Donna (formerly Douglas) Perry is an American serial killer. Perry killed at least three women in the 1990s, before having reassignment surgery, including on Perry's penis in 2000. It is feared Perry killed more women than these three.

Perry was convicted of the murders in 2014 and is now in a women's prison. At least one of the victim's families has objected to this, as they believe Perry poses a risk to women incarcerated with Perry. I agree with them.

www.cbsnews.com/news/donna-perry-transgender-woman-murder-prostitutes-washington/

Is there any chance, any chance at all you could actually centre women rather than the men with the special feelings!

Can you tell us what this means in reality? Is this person less likely to harm a female person ?

Are they less strong? How? What proof do you have?

Do they have no potential to commit a sex crime? At all? Do you have proof?

Or is this just a narrative that have been perpetuated that has no proven evidence to support it?

Besides which, if this person has male cues, why would you put them into a situation where they might cause distress to female people who have suffered at the hands of male people?

Why do female people need to accommodate any male who is considered somehow more deserving of being considered ‘a woman’?

I almost feel like the victim in all of this has been forgotten about. Jorge looks like my dad did at that age, which makes me feel even sadder that this lovely man was murdered. The police didn't even know it was murder until Scarlet's boyfriend contacted the police and confessed to what he knew about it. They thought it was a drunken accident. I can't imagine what his family and friends went through, especially with the media circus surrounding the perp who killed their son/brother/friend. His family have spoken very movingly about him (Jorge was one of a set of triplets) and his ex girlfriend has also paid tribute to him as they remained friends after they split up. It just makes me rage that some people do indeed feel more sorry for this murdering cat killing scumbag (who also threatened to rape an ex girlfriend) than his victim. I'm glad he's being put in the men's estate, where he won't have access to vulnerable women.

Meanwhile, JK Rowling is amazing and I'm so glad she's joined us in this fight. She's an absolute legend. 💚🤍💜 I like to think she's lurking and knows how much some of us support her!

Andrew Miller, the Borders butcher who kidnapped a girl and sexually assaulted her, had apparently been dressing as a woman for years.

Doesn't make him a woman! And he shouldn't be anywhere near a woman's prison.

I think prisons are the best place to start creating a 'third' space.

There's no doubt that trans women are going to be very vulnerable in a men's prison. But they don't belong in the single-sex space of a woman's prison.

Trans men are going to be very very vulnerable in a men's prison even if they want to be treated according to their gender presentation so it would be irresponsible for authorities to house them there. If they have fully transitioned and continuing with hormones then it might be uncomfortable for them and other female prisoners to be housed in the same women's prison.

Yes, it takes money and resources for new prisons or prison wings but the current numbers are low enough to make it viable. A third prison space keeps both vulnerable trans prisoners and women prisoners safe.

Male people go in men's prisons, female people go in women's prisons. If trans identifying prisoners (be they male or female) need to be kept separate away from the general population of those prisons, then surely they can be put in a different wing or area. Would that not suffice? Once again it seems to be down to women to sort out everyone else's problems. Sod that for a game of soldiers. My concern is with keeping men out of women's prisons.

There's no doubt that trans women are going to be very vulnerable in a men's prison.

Where is the evidence of this? There was an instance where a transwoman was going to be moved out of the male estate into the women's as THEY had assaulted males and were a risk to them was there not?

Oh how very dare a woman comment on another woman being killed by a man! Outrageous behaviour 🙄

Well out in the non-prison world transpeople are more likely to be victims of violent crime than the rest of us - a 2017 study in the US put it at four times more likely.

I am assuming that vulnerability extends to the prison environment.

I don't believe biological men should be in women's single sex spaces.

But I don't see why we can't create safe zones for transgender people at the same time as protecting women.

Katie Dolatowski (transwoman) assaulted a man in prison, and was transferred to a woman's prison.

Tiffany Scott is another charmer (Scotland seems to be full of them ) - wanted to move to a women's prison but I think this was blocked. This person is so violent that extra security measures were required for court.

Oh, and it's not just the women prisoners who suffer at the hands of these men - don't forget the female prison officers forced to deal with them and even search them.

“There's no doubt that trans women are going to be very vulnerable in a men's prison”

I too wonder where do people get this narrative from?

Is it because extreme trans activists say so? Because I have been assured by many people across MN that many male people
with trans identities don’t use female single sex spaces. If they are not using female single sex spaces, they must use male spaces when there is no option. Or those posters are lying.

we know there are male people with female presentation using male spaces because they have told us on Twitter. So. Where is this narrative that they are in danger using male spaces coming from.

Are they more at risk than any other male vulnerable person? If so, what other vulnerable people need separate spaces? Because male people need to get onto getting at sorted.

But I don't see why we can't create safe zones for transgender people at the same time as protecting women.

What don't think GC women have been shouting for for ages? The trans lobby don't want this.

*do you

There have been some interesting recent posts here by prison officers and others who work with offenders, @2under4 , that address many of your questions.

Many men in prison are vulnerable, not just trans ones but for example those with physical or learning disabilities. A prison worker here said she'd attended quite a few multidisciplinary meetings to decide how best to accommodate the requirements of trans prisoners. But she was also advocate for a prisoner who needed a wheelchair and had been allocated to a non-accessible cell - she'd not been able to get a single meeting to discuss his needs. There's no fully accessible prison he could be sent to.

Another prison officer said there is a dedicated trans wing at one of the prisons. It's practically unused because nobody wants to be transferred there (like the recent trans-only swimming competition that was cancelled because not 1 competitor entered).

And the trouble with a dedicated trans prison is that there aren't huge numbers of trans prisoners, so even if it were wanted it would only be reasonable to have 1 prison. Which would mean most being held a long way from home, where friends and family couldn't visit. And that Is known to increase the reoffending risk.

Hormone tests? You can check if someone is taking them at the point the decision is made - but how do you guarantee they continue to take them after transfer? You can't compel medical treatment. And what would be the point if they were being held in a transwomen prison? Hormone treatment would only be arguably relevant for transfer to the female estate - and there are a thousand reasons why that is unconscionable. Hormones are the least of it.

But I don't see why we can't create safe zones for transgender people at the same time as protecting women.

Create them in the male prison estate for TW, it's ever so easy they already have Vulnerable Prisoner Wings and protocols within the male estate, they've managed to do that for years and years and years so all the experience necessary.

Well out in the non-prison world transpeople are more likely to be victims of violent crime than the rest of us - a 2017 study in the US put it at four times more likely.

(1) this isn't the USA and (2) what was that study? What countries did it cover? It is well known that TW who work within the sex industry are at high risk but no more than women also working within that industry and (3) Trans is regularly shown to be the safest demographic within the UK.

I would love to see a campaign to make all male spaces more welcoming and accommodating of all male people. Why isn’t this happening?

Maybe our male posters can tell us why?